Received: from mail-pd0-f188.google.com ([209.85.192.188]:33165) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YqlSG-0006cx-Fc for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:56 -0700 Received: by pdjg10 with SMTP id g10sf20516892pdj.0 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=I5gs/SgVHrZQ4DZ/FNZA2V63TEJBLOasnieni5DEeK8=; b=zbCR8B35Gkp49LfAWsaAgoonM7gNgU63IUTMLF8NY65c9+yeJrYde+kAgwcnXMIPGZ bfM1GAbaNQ18HJOVsVqGSs9Xwt4NG1K7XHNtiIFaqJyEDUKTCRqFHV46N/ZPGIlGwR5j oIyYib8lgZwtMJrLFKOjovC7fBxoC3h7E08JRIcQCgQy2wdiZTYnKpyn65fOplFKcwDs KQeJdTH782ZG61FUvqYLEc4sOK/gPacwJbcZzM/eBtHrqyQu7PW2brHIJ+wrmcjmWBPg bh4BbsdDuKwcXWIOkC1bTDzM4WoshR5sOXmLBK4lyt1v2rYa6xbFz5BL0C50fvUBDYV7 lPdw== X-Received: by 10.50.23.108 with SMTP id l12mr107510igf.16.1431103726568; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.33.75 with SMTP id h72ls871588ioh.47.gmail; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.182.166 with SMTP id ef6mr6945984pac.42.1431103726263; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22e.google.com (mail-pd0-x22e.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ye6si646941pbc.2.2015.05.08.09.48.46 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22e; Received: by mail-pd0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a3so91502478pde.3 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.70.62.97 with SMTP id x1mr7817843pdr.41.1431103701450; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <494619f2-d28a-4893-a7c2-14c6d78f817c@googlegroups.com> <6af25e33-7de5-4b0d-abf6-72192aafdb48@googlegroups.com> <20150508143112.GA2051@kuebelreiter.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> In-Reply-To: From: Craig Daniel Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 16:48:20 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: It's been a long time. To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160b75ec305f1051594cb15 X-Original-Sender: craigbdaniel@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=craigbdaniel@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - --089e0160b75ec305f1051594cb15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I always took it as not mi'a but mi - which in Lojban has a referent that is the speaker, but if you're speaking on behalf of a group means that group (but not also others), just as a group can be do if that's who you're addressing. Now, it's unclear how big a group you're speaking for in that prayer (I interpret it as roda), but those "we"s and "us"es never contrast with a smaller "me." On 12:31pm, Fri, May 8, 2015 Jonathan Soo wrote: > "I'm not a Christian, but is that even a *possible* interpretation? > " > > No it isn't... though Christians believe in the Father, Son, Spirit, the > prayer is clearly addressed to the Father, and they certainly won't address > God as somehow being his own Father. > > source: Yeah I'm one > > On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-05-08 17:31 GMT+03:00 v4hn : >> >>> On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 04:53:42PM +0300, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> > 2015-05-08 15:53 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine : >>> > > Actually Pater Noster is clearly {mi'a}, since the "our" clearly >>> doesn't >>> > > include the addressee (God/the Father). >>> > >>> > Who knows, maybe Father is the father of himself. >>> >>> I'm not a Christian, but is that even a *possible* interpretation? >>> It sounds ridiculous to me. >>> >> >> Sorry, I'm not an expert. Some say other religions are ridiculous. >> Translation can be very important. You wouldn't complaint that 3=1, would >> you? Is that more ridiculous? >> >>> >>> > Also {ma'a} is possible like e.g. Father not only of Christians but >>> even >>> > those who don't believe in Him. >>> > [...] >>> > {mi'a} would mean here something completely different and for some it >>> may >>> > sound egoistic. >>> >>> Sorry, you lost me. Why wouldn't {mi'a} include others? >>> The addressee is clearly the Father, not heathens. >>> Both {mi'a} and {ma'a} include "& others unspecified" in their >>> definition. >>> >> >> >> Oops, indeed, my mistake. It should be {mi} (which is also "we") vs. >> {mi'a}. >> >> >>> >>> >>> v4hn >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/Q10NFUJ0u8s/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0160b75ec305f1051594cb15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I always took it as not mi'a but mi - which in Lojban ha= s a referent that is the speaker, but if you're speaking on behalf of a= group means that group (but not also others), just as a group can be do if= that's who you're addressing. Now, it's unclear how big a grou= p you're speaking for in that prayer (I interpret it as roda), but thos= e "we"s and "us"es never contrast with a smaller "= me."


On 12:31pm, Fri, May 8, 2015=C2=A0Jonathan S= oo <spheniscine@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
"I'm not a Chris= tian, but is that even a *possible* interpretation?
"= ;

No it isn't... though Christians believe in the Father, Son, S= pirit, the prayer is clearly addressed to the Father, and they certainly wo= n't address God as somehow being his own Father.

= source: Yea= h I'm one

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna &= lt;gleki.is= .my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-08 17:31 GMT+03:00 v4hn <me@v4hn.de>:
On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 04:53:42PM +0300, Gleki Arxoku= na wrote:
> 2015-05-08 15:53 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com>:
> > Actually Pater Noster is clearly {mi'a}, since the "our&= quot; clearly doesn't
> > include the addressee (God/the Father).
>
> Who knows, maybe Father is the father of himself.

I'm not a Christian, but is that even a *possible* interpretatio= n?
It sounds ridiculous to me.

Sorr= y, I'm not an expert. Some say other religions are ridiculous. Translat= ion can be very important. You wouldn't complaint that 3=3D1, would you= ? Is that more ridiculous?

> Also {ma'a} is possible like e.g. Father not only of Christians bu= t even
> those who don't believe in Him.
> [...]
> {mi'a} would mean here something completely different and fo= r some it may
> sound egoistic.

Sorry, you lost me. Why wouldn't {mi'a} include others?
The addressee is clearly the Father, not heathens.
Both {mi'a} and {ma'a} include "& others unspecified"= in their definition.


=
Oops, indeed, my mistake. It should be {mi} (which is also "we&qu= ot;) vs. {mi'a}.
=C2=A0


v4hn

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--
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