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Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:04:53 +0200
Message-ID: <CAAQ0imNxsjODnD94+LN6W3FJwMi1Lf0d8nx8OZYqyDMpvbPTJg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] New metalinguistic term since the cmevla-brivla merge?
From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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My understanding is that "merging" cmevla and brivla was rejected on the
basis that it would have broken a significant part of the grammar.

{la lojban mo}, would no longer mean "what is lojban" (or similar).

The way to transform a cmevla into a brivla is by using {me la} ( {lo mela
diplodocus cu barda} )

Did I miss the merge and the necessary changes to the grammar?


On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, as implemented by
> the ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be redefined.
>
> {cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a consonant, have mandatory
> pauses before and after, and are primarily used for names.
>
> As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla ca brivla}. What is used to be known
> as "Stage 2 fu'ivla" can now be just cmevla; for example, I could say:
>
> {ti .fetutcinis.} (This is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I
> eat some fettucine)
>
> In those examples, the cmevla have been divorced from their usual role of
> "proper nouns", and are basically used the same way a gismu, lujvo, or a
> zi'evla would. Additionally, they're dead easy to use; any beginner who's
> been taught how to reformat their name into a cmevla can use tthese.
>
> Of course, like stage-2 fu'ivla before it, this is meant to be only a
> temporary measure; there are two good reasons to "naturalize" any useful
> concepts into a lujvo or zi'evla:
>
>    1. Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla in text will
>    inhibit natural reading.
>    2. The possibility of rigorous definition in resources like jbovlaste,
>    with defined place values; as per the goals of Lojban, each {na'e cmevla
>    brivla} should represent one single concept, and polysemy avoided.
>
> And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the problem: we need a
> new word for {na'e cmevla brivla}, which differs from {cmevla} both in
> morphology and in having a rigorously defined place structure. It is the
> union of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi'evla}. What should it be?
>
> {kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla}? Or something else entirely?
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>My understanding is that &quot;merging=
&quot; cmevla and brivla was rejected on the basis that it would have broke=
n a significant part of the grammar. <br><br></div>{la lojban mo}, would no=
 longer mean &quot;what is lojban&quot; (or similar).<br><br></div>The way =
to transform a cmevla into a brivla is by using {me la} ( {lo mela diplodoc=
us cu barda} )<br><br></div>Did I miss the merge and the necessary changes =
to the grammar?<br><br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Spheniscine <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spheniscine@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sp=
heniscine@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">If the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, =
as implemented by the ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be red=
efined.<div><br></div><div>{cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a=
 consonant, have mandatory pauses before and after, and are primarily used =
for names.</div><div><br></div><div>As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla c=
a brivla}. What is used to be known as &quot;Stage 2 fu&#39;ivla&quot; can =
now be just cmevla; for example, I could say:</div><div><br></div><div>{ti =
.fetutcinis.} (This is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I eat som=
e fettucine)</div><div><br></div><div>In those examples, the cmevla have be=
en divorced from their usual role of &quot;proper nouns&quot;, and are basi=
cally used the same way a gismu, lujvo, or a zi&#39;evla would. Additionall=
y, they&#39;re dead easy to use; any beginner who&#39;s been taught how to =
reformat their name into a cmevla can use tthese.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Of course, like stage-2 fu&#39;ivla before it, this is meant to be only a t=
emporary measure; there are two good reasons to &quot;naturalize&quot; any =
useful concepts into a lujvo or zi&#39;evla:</div><div><ol><li><span style=
=3D"line-height:normal">Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla =
in text will inhibit natural reading.</span></li><li><span style=3D"line-he=
ight:normal">The possibility of rigorous definition in resources like jbovl=
aste, with defined place values; as per the goals of Lojban, each {na&#39;e=
 cmevla brivla} should represent one single concept, and polysemy avoided.<=
/span></li></ol><div>And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the=
 problem: we need a new word for {na&#39;e cmevla brivla}, which differs fr=
om {cmevla} both in morphology and in having a rigorously defined place str=
ucture. It is the union of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi&#39;evla}. Wh=
at should it be?</div></div><div><br></div><div>{kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla=
}? Or something else entirely?</div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font colo=
r=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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