Received: from mail-yh0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:33726) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YrMht-0003ev-CK for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:33 -0700 Received: by yhzz6 with SMTP id z6sf28589094yhz.0 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=E1F9v+To76jJWXOsJLEhSdHCRG/Q1p0A7w6zB3PCnbU=; b=GvUvw24TbRBYpeIX80Yle2hADq0tEIF7CJ83DcGWoD3iDa6MeH/pCoMPfhFsiZf76v /N2vXZMGkPyz/EDRfvL/ptgd53qGPSD7qVshrP+PzWp3cr4CUImf4Qos6rhYvQ8/ZMgb zsk5joMcdixkGzqJNlMzMB9ycNXWVeYKr07Kot1qSQ9issHz6n8u8q+tFzKgyq1ow+MI CKmLDSCvKSU8qpk8vujtXUqftCdza6qUsIJkmCNdyALw1XPIWFneLKQrgK60k2JLtcS1 WRd3U+6bOSpxDjnIT4MMvSlTGiUJ+hYYzPHC/PjYbX7aoHVsK+yLoq5AzuBCAnJubjQQ FKnA== X-Received: by 10.140.105.133 with SMTP id c5mr67424qgf.28.1431246923492; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.104.52 with SMTP id z49ls1893362qge.23.gmail; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.38.194 with SMTP id a42mr10761302yhb.4.1431246923205; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7si354447igu.0.2015.05.10.01.35.23 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b; Received: by mail-ig0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id pi8so54797680igb.0 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.76.146 with SMTP id e18mr5988096ick.42.1431246923067; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.18.135 with HTTP; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.18.135 with HTTP; Sun, 10 May 2015 01:35:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2c247ae2-1e2b-446f-906e-d48a75271b77@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 10:35:23 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] New metalinguistic term since the cmevla-brivla merge? From: Remo Dentato To: lojban Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba2125016f783e0515b624f8 X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --90e6ba2125016f783e0515b624f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I wouldn't mind the merge. Actually I would be in favor. However to me the consistency of the formal grammar is what makes lojban what it is. If there's a parser for 'the merge' I assume the details have been sorted out. On 10 May 2015 09:24, "Spheniscine" wrote: > fau'u ru'e I didn't know about the difference between the "experimental" > ilmentufa parser (which implemented the merge) and the "official" ilmentufa > parser (which hasn't yet) > > I'm not too familiar about the discussed pros and cons of the merge, but I > think the simplification of the vocabulary expansion process (another on > the pro side is the abilities of la-names to mix cmevla with za'e mulvla) > is worth a few more mandatory s, whose elision tends to confuse > beginners anyway. (I think it's a bit more natural to drop them after > pro-sumti without forgetting it when it is mandatory, but dropping them > after cmevla might; I could be wrong though, as I have been AWOL for a > while) > > On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 3:04:54 PM UTC+8, remod wrote: >> >> My understanding is that "merging" cmevla and brivla was rejected on the >> basis that it would have broken a significant part of the grammar. >> >> {la lojban mo}, would no longer mean "what is lojban" (or similar). >> >> The way to transform a cmevla into a brivla is by using {me la} ( {lo >> mela diplodocus cu barda} ) >> >> Did I miss the merge and the necessary changes to the grammar? >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Spheniscine wrote: >> >>> If the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, as implemented >>> by the ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be redefined. >>> >>> {cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a consonant, have >>> mandatory pauses before and after, and are primarily used for names. >>> >>> As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla ca brivla}. What is used to be >>> known as "Stage 2 fu'ivla" can now be just cmevla; for example, I could say: >>> >>> {ti .fetutcinis.} (This is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I >>> eat some fettucine) >>> >>> In those examples, the cmevla have been divorced from their usual role >>> of "proper nouns", and are basically used the same way a gismu, lujvo, or a >>> zi'evla would. Additionally, they're dead easy to use; any beginner who's >>> been taught how to reformat their name into a cmevla can use tthese. >>> >>> Of course, like stage-2 fu'ivla before it, this is meant to be only a >>> temporary measure; there are two good reasons to "naturalize" any useful >>> concepts into a lujvo or zi'evla: >>> >>> 1. Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla in text will >>> inhibit natural reading. >>> 2. The possibility of rigorous definition in resources like >>> jbovlaste, with defined place values; as per the goals of Lojban, each >>> {na'e cmevla brivla} should represent one single concept, and polysemy >>> avoided. >>> >>> And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the problem: we need >>> a new word for {na'e cmevla brivla}, which differs from {cmevla} both in >>> morphology and in having a rigorously defined place structure. It is the >>> union of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi'evla}. What should it be? >>> >>> {kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla}? Or something else entirely? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --90e6ba2125016f783e0515b624f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wouldn't mind the merge. Actually I would be in favor.=
However to me the consistency of the formal grammar is what makes lojban wh= at it is. If there's=C2=A0 a parser for 'the merge' I assume th= e details have been sorted out.

On 10 May 2015 09:24, "Spheniscine" &l= t;spheniscine@gmail.com> wr= ote:
fau'u ru'e I didn't know about the difference between the &qu= ot;experimental" ilmentufa parser (which implemented the merge) and th= e "official" ilmentufa parser (which hasn't yet)

I'm not too familiar about the discussed pros and cons of the me= rge, but I think the simplification of the vocabulary expansion process (an= other on the pro side is the abilities of la-names to mix cmevla with za= 9;e mulvla) is worth a few more mandatory <cu>s, whose elision tends = to confuse beginners anyway. (I think it's a bit more natural to drop t= hem after pro-sumti without forgetting it when it is mandatory, but droppin= g them after cmevla might; I could be wrong though, as I have been AWOL for= a while)

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 3:04:54 PM UTC+8, remod wr= ote:
My understanding is that "merging" cmevla and brivla was re= jected on the basis that it would have broken a significant part of the gra= mmar.

{la lojban mo}, would no longer mean "what is lojb= an" (or similar).

The way to transform a cmevla into a br= ivla is by using {me la} ( {lo mela diplodocus cu barda} )

Did= I miss the merge and the necessary changes to the grammar?



On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 7:39 AM= , Spheniscine <sphen...@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
If= the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, as implemented by th= e ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be redefined.

{cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a consonant, have man= datory pauses before and after, and are primarily used for names.

As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla ca brivla}. What is u= sed to be known as "Stage 2 fu'ivla" can now be just cmevla; = for example, I could say:

{ti .fetutcinis.} (This = is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I eat some fettucine)

In those examples, the cmevla have been divorced from the= ir usual role of "proper nouns", and are basically used the same = way a gismu, lujvo, or a zi'evla would. Additionally, they're dead = easy to use; any beginner who's been taught how to reformat their name = into a cmevla can use tthese.

Of course, like stag= e-2 fu'ivla before it, this is meant to be only a temporary measure; th= ere are two good reasons to "naturalize" any useful concepts into= a lujvo or zi'evla:
  1. Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla in text will inhibit = natural reading.
  2. The poss= ibility of rigorous definition in resources like jbovlaste, with defined pl= ace values; as per the goals of Lojban, each {na'e cmevla brivla} shoul= d represent one single concept, and polysemy avoided.
= And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the problem: we need a n= ew word for {na'e cmevla brivla}, which differs from {cmevla} both in m= orphology and in having a rigorously defined place structure. It is the uni= on of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi'evla}. What should it be?

{kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla}? Or something else = entirely?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--90e6ba2125016f783e0515b624f8--