Received: from mail-wi0-f185.google.com ([209.85.212.185]:34767) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YrNHM-0003wW-73 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:13 -0700 Received: by wivr20 with SMTP id r20sf21695828wiv.1 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PYLqkEKDWIBcbV+BwkYXdtnibJRRfo35OL6lnNwLi5U=; b=jL0eh/xYrP5MUvnRVus3oxg9DlaimN3VSSu5pjC3vyrTc6CuERkROtfh1kBzuuOcRN YUP4WXs1/6g5vP1p1Mf6ENRjtmfMpzygfap3txuUA8cjcsxkcWZIlBEF44e+SRcLpE39 7TtBLnMk48Ph2ocYH0AYVHZVQGmll2RnEq8BIhQBHaxqzvFmrxhGcUkmI6GSvNSuZQ3l xGkyiZAaOZTfxdMGjbvYf0lWpzezarxqq2M98fOLVgp9q789OUdA8a5H/y2iuV9c2vQB Y0iwZzgmkr3FKi92X3j9rpEsRAZSbeUNEhVlR3og7HHt4eg7RCGNM857TUusIkFTp3Md qsqw== X-Received: by 10.152.3.38 with SMTP id 6mr64813laz.27.1431249121640; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.30.74 with SMTP id q10ls540844lah.35.gmail; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.118.162 with SMTP id kn2mr4201155lbb.22.1431249120979; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p12si230615wiv.1.2015.05.10.02.12.00 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b; Received: by mail-wi0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id di4so66997794wid.0 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.200 with SMTP id c8mr11204957wiy.49.1431249120819; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:12:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Sun, 10 May 2015 02:11:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2c247ae2-1e2b-446f-906e-d48a75271b77@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 12:11:40 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] New metalinguistic term since the cmevla-brivla merge? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdb086e7e380515b6a75a X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043bdb086e7e380515b6a75a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Although this is not yet implemented anywhere but autocorrecting parsers will autoinsert {cu} after cmevla in clauses (bridi) where the main selbri is absent. e.g. {la lojban. mo} is {la .lojban. cu mo} since no other selbri is present. However, {la moxamed morsi cu mo} will treat the name as consisting of two words since the selbri is already present. This will allow to correctly parse most sentences of do-not-merge and do-merge communities. Actually this is not the largest problem in the live corpus. The largest problem is plain wrong Lojban of newcomers. 2015-05-10 11:35 GMT+03:00 Remo Dentato : > I wouldn't mind the merge. Actually I would be in favor. > However to me the consistency of the formal grammar is what makes lojban > what it is. If there's a parser for 'the merge' I assume the details have > been sorted out. > On 10 May 2015 09:24, "Spheniscine" wrote: > >> fau'u ru'e I didn't know about the difference between the "experimental" >> ilmentufa parser (which implemented the merge) and the "official" ilmentufa >> parser (which hasn't yet) >> >> I'm not too familiar about the discussed pros and cons of the merge, but >> I think the simplification of the vocabulary expansion process (another on >> the pro side is the abilities of la-names to mix cmevla with za'e mulvla) >> is worth a few more mandatory s, whose elision tends to confuse >> beginners anyway. (I think it's a bit more natural to drop them after >> pro-sumti without forgetting it when it is mandatory, but dropping them >> after cmevla might; I could be wrong though, as I have been AWOL for a >> while) >> >> On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 3:04:54 PM UTC+8, remod wrote: >>> >>> My understanding is that "merging" cmevla and brivla was rejected on the >>> basis that it would have broken a significant part of the grammar. >>> >>> {la lojban mo}, would no longer mean "what is lojban" (or similar). >>> >>> The way to transform a cmevla into a brivla is by using {me la} ( {lo >>> mela diplodocus cu barda} ) >>> >>> Did I miss the merge and the necessary changes to the grammar? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Spheniscine wrote: >>> >>>> If the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, as implemented >>>> by the ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be redefined. >>>> >>>> {cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a consonant, have >>>> mandatory pauses before and after, and are primarily used for names. >>>> >>>> As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla ca brivla}. What is used to be >>>> known as "Stage 2 fu'ivla" can now be just cmevla; for example, I could say: >>>> >>>> {ti .fetutcinis.} (This is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I >>>> eat some fettucine) >>>> >>>> In those examples, the cmevla have been divorced from their usual role >>>> of "proper nouns", and are basically used the same way a gismu, lujvo, or a >>>> zi'evla would. Additionally, they're dead easy to use; any beginner who's >>>> been taught how to reformat their name into a cmevla can use tthese. >>>> >>>> Of course, like stage-2 fu'ivla before it, this is meant to be only a >>>> temporary measure; there are two good reasons to "naturalize" any useful >>>> concepts into a lujvo or zi'evla: >>>> >>>> 1. Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla in text will >>>> inhibit natural reading. >>>> 2. The possibility of rigorous definition in resources like >>>> jbovlaste, with defined place values; as per the goals of Lojban, each >>>> {na'e cmevla brivla} should represent one single concept, and polysemy >>>> avoided. >>>> >>>> And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the problem: we need >>>> a new word for {na'e cmevla brivla}, which differs from {cmevla} both in >>>> morphology and in having a rigorously defined place structure. It is the >>>> union of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi'evla}. What should it be? >>>> >>>> {kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla}? Or something else entirely? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043bdb086e7e380515b6a75a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Although this is not yet implemented anywhere but autocorr= ecting parsers will autoinsert {cu} after cmevla in clauses (bridi) where t= he main selbri is absent.
e.g. {la lojban. mo} is {la .lojban. cu mo} s= ince no other selbri is present. However,
{la moxamed morsi cu mo= } will treat the name as consisting of two words since the selbri is alread= y present.

This will allow to correctly parse most= sentences of do-not-merge and do-merge communities.

Actually this is not the largest problem in the live corpus. The largest= problem is plain wrong Lojban of newcomers.

2015-05-10 11:35 GMT+03:00 Remo Dent= ato <rdentato@gmail.com>:

I wouldn't mind the merge. Actually I would be in favor= .
However to me the consistency of the formal grammar is what makes lojban wh= at it is. If there's=C2=A0 a parser for 'the merge' I assume th= e details have been sorted out.

On 10 May 2015 09:24, "Spheniscine" &l= t;spheniscine@gm= ail.com> wrote:
fau'u ru'e I didn't know about the differen= ce between the "experimental" ilmentufa parser (which implemented= the merge) and the "official" ilmentufa parser (which hasn't= yet)

I'm not too familiar about the discussed pros = and cons of the merge, but I think the simplification of the vocabulary exp= ansion process (another on the pro side is the abilities of la-names to mix= cmevla with za'e mulvla) is worth a few more mandatory <cu>s, wh= ose elision tends to confuse beginners anyway. (I think it's a bit more= natural to drop them after pro-sumti without forgetting it when it is mand= atory, but dropping them after cmevla might; I could be wrong though, as I = have been AWOL for a while)

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 3:04:54 = PM UTC+8, remod wrote:
My understanding is that "merging" cmevla= and brivla was rejected on the basis that it would have broken a significa= nt part of the grammar.

{la lojban mo}, would no longer mean = "what is lojban" (or similar).

The way to transform = a cmevla into a brivla is by using {me la} ( {lo mela diplodocus cu barda} = )

Did I miss the merge and the necessary changes to the gramma= r?



On Sun, May 1= 0, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Spheniscine <s= phen...@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">If the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, as= implemented by the ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be redef= ined.

{cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a c= onsonant, have mandatory pauses before and after, and are primarily used fo= r names.

As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla ca = brivla}. What is used to be known as "Stage 2 fu'ivla" can no= w be just cmevla; for example, I could say:

{ti .f= etutcinis.} (This is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I eat some = fettucine)

In those examples, the cmevla have been= divorced from their usual role of "proper nouns", and are basica= lly used the same way a gismu, lujvo, or a zi'evla would. Additionally,= they're dead easy to use; any beginner who's been taught how to re= format their name into a cmevla can use tthese.

Of= course, like stage-2 fu'ivla before it, this is meant to be only a tem= porary measure; there are two good reasons to "naturalize" any us= eful concepts into a lujvo or zi'evla:
  1. Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla in = text will inhibit natural reading.
  2. The possibility of rigorous definition in resources like jbovlast= e, with defined place values; as per the goals of Lojban, each {na'e cm= evla brivla} should represent one single concept, and polysemy avoided.
And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the pr= oblem: we need a new word for {na'e cmevla brivla}, which differs from = {cmevla} both in morphology and in having a rigorously defined place struct= ure. It is the union of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi'evla}. What = should it be?

{kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla}? = Or something else entirely?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d043bdb086e7e380515b6a75a--