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Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:52:24 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] selma'o Documentation (or, rewriting the CLL?)
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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While there are problems, I don't think this is as bad as you are making it
out to be. Xorlo did not change syntax. The cmevla-brivla merge (if that is
semi-official now) makes a minor change in syntax; basically LA works the
same as LE did to begin with, which is pretty much exactly what you would
expect. Perhaps we could compile a list of the completely new selma'o that
actually get used in practice.

I know I in particular have made a point of trying to use existing selma'o
with my coined cmavo. Four of my cmavo in JVS have a selma'o I made up, two
of these cmavo being in the same selma'o. Details:
{jai'a} was made for fun because I saw a use case for it, but it is only
useful in the same way that {jai} is, and is much less frequently
applicable.
{no'oi} and {po'oi} were made for symmetry back when I was actively working
on fancylojban-ish stuff. We don't really have the brivla to make good use
of them right now, and I doubt we will anytime soon.
{ju'ei} is quite useful when it is desirable, but that is infrequent.
Indeed I can't think of a situation where I would want to use {ju'ei} in a
literal translation of well-written English, because in English this is
either bad style or simply unintelligible.

My remaining nine cmavo all use official selma'o, specifically ZO, ME,
LAhE, NAhE, KE, XI, ZOhU, LE. I would strongly encourage people with ideas
for cmavo to try to twist them into existing selma'o if at all possible.

The unofficial selma'o I have actually seen a fair bit in chat: ZOhOI,
LOhAI/SAhAI/LEhAI, MEhOI, ZEhEI. The rest? Easily able to be ignored for a
long time, in my view.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:14 AM, Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:

> So I faced a problem: One could look up what a cmavo is supposed to mean,
> and see the selma'o it belongs to. The problem is that there is no current
> reference as to what the selma'o mean, and its syntax; little things like
> whether {na'e fetsi mlatu} refers to a cat that is non-female or something
> that isn't a female cat (turns out, it's the first. To express the second,
> you need {na'e ke fetsi mlatu [ke'e]}, or {na'e fetsi bo mlatu}). And sure,
> one could use the ilmentufa parser, but that won't tell you about the
> little details like the possible different functions of certain selma'o
> like BO and NAI, depending on position. I also wanted very rough
> correspondences of certain selma'o to common parts of speech like
> "prepositions" "articles" etc., which you can't find on a simple search. Of
> course, I do realize that these correspondences are in fact very rough, and
> that the selma'o resist any strict classification to those terms, but I
> wanted there to be at least a starting point.
>
> So then, I brought up the idea of writing a documentation for the selma'o;
> after some encouragement, I started this wiki page:
> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)
>
> *However*, I soon ran into a second problem - defining the Lojbanic
> metalinguistic terms that we keep throwing around, like {selbri}, {sumti},
> {tanru}, and of course, {selma'o}. You can see the results of my attempt on
> that page; I just ended up tying myself in knots defining each term in
> terms of other terms. This won't quite do; they need to be defined from the
> ground up, and a mere glossary is not quite sufficient for that.
>
> So then I got to thinking... that's what the CLL is supposed to do, right?
> {la selpa'i} even pointed out a page in the CLL that has much the same
> function as my page was meant to be for: http://lojban.github.io/cll/20/
>
> But the problem is that the CLL is fossilized; it has not been updated in
> years, maybe decades. It does not reflect the various reforms over the
> years; not the cmevla-brivla merge, not any of the new cmavo or selma'o,
> not even xorlo. It's also not reflected any changes and tightening in
> meta-linguistic terminology; it uses {cmene} instead of {cmevla}, for
> example.
>
> Of course, though, this "new CLL" has to be on the Wiki, and able to be
> edited to reflect any future reforms; otherwise it's just end up like the
> current CLL, or Loglan before it. It can't belong to me, to la gleki, to la
> selpahi, or anyone, but everyone.
>
> {.ie pei doi ro do}
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>While there are pr=
oblems, I don&#39;t think this is as bad as you are making it out to be. Xo=
rlo did not change syntax. The cmevla-brivla merge (if that is semi-officia=
l now) makes a minor change in syntax; basically LA works the same as LE di=
d to begin with, which is pretty much exactly what you would expect. Perhap=
s we could compile a list of the completely new selma&#39;o that actually g=
et used in practice. <br><br></div>I know I in particular have made a point=
 of trying to use existing selma&#39;o with my coined cmavo. Four of my cma=
vo in JVS have a selma&#39;o I made up, two of these cmavo being in the sam=
e selma&#39;o. Details:<br>{jai&#39;a} was made for fun because I saw a use=
 case for it, but it is only useful in the same way that {jai} is, and is m=
uch less frequently applicable. <br>{no&#39;oi} and {po&#39;oi} were made f=
or symmetry back when I was actively working on fancylojban-ish stuff. We d=
on&#39;t really have the brivla to make good use of them right now, and I d=
oubt we will anytime soon. <br>{ju&#39;ei} is quite useful when it is desir=
able, but that is infrequent. Indeed I can&#39;t think of a situation where=
 I would want to use {ju&#39;ei} in a literal translation of well-written E=
nglish, because in English this is either bad style or simply unintelligibl=
e. <br><br>My remaining nine cmavo all use official selma&#39;o, specifical=
ly ZO, ME, LAhE, NAhE, KE, XI, ZOhU, LE. I would strongly encourage people =
with ideas for cmavo to try to twist them into existing selma&#39;o if at a=
ll possible.<br><br></div><div>The unofficial selma&#39;o I have actually s=
een a fair bit in chat: ZOhOI, LOhAI/SAhAI/LEhAI, MEhOI, ZEhEI. The rest? E=
asily able to be ignored for a long time, in my view.<br><br></div><div>mi&=
#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
<br><br><div><div><br><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:14 AM, Spheniscine <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spheniscine@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">spheniscine@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So I faced a problem: One could look up what a cmavo=
 is supposed to mean, and see the selma&#39;o it belongs to. The problem is=
 that there is no current reference as to what the selma&#39;o mean, and it=
s syntax; little things like whether {na&#39;e fetsi mlatu} refers to a cat=
 that is non-female or something that isn&#39;t a female cat (turns out, it=
&#39;s the first. To express the second, you need {na&#39;e ke fetsi mlatu =
[ke&#39;e]}, or {na&#39;e fetsi bo mlatu}). And sure, one could use the ilm=
entufa parser, but that won&#39;t tell you about the little details like th=
e possible different functions of certain selma&#39;o like BO and NAI, depe=
nding on position. I also wanted very rough correspondences of certain selm=
a&#39;o to common parts of speech like &quot;prepositions&quot; &quot;artic=
les&quot; etc., which you can&#39;t find on a simple search. Of course, I d=
o realize that these correspondences are in fact very rough, and that the s=
elma&#39;o resist any strict classification to those terms, but I wanted th=
ere to be at least a starting point.<div><br></div><div>So then, I brought =
up the idea of writing a documentation for the selma&#39;o; after some enco=
uragement, I started this wiki page:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/p=
apri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)=
</a></div><div><br></div><div><b>However</b>, I soon ran into a second prob=
lem - defining the Lojbanic metalinguistic terms that we keep throwing arou=
nd, like {selbri}, {sumti}, {tanru}, and of course, {selma&#39;o}. You can =
see the results of my attempt on that page; I just ended up tying myself in=
 knots defining each term in terms of other terms. This won&#39;t quite do;=
 they need to be defined from the ground up, and a mere glossary is not qui=
te sufficient for that.</div><div><br></div><div>So then I got to thinking.=
.. that&#39;s what the CLL is supposed to do, right? {la selpa&#39;i} even =
pointed out a page in the CLL that has much the same function as my page wa=
s meant to be for:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/20/" target=
=3D"_blank">http://lojban.github.io/cll/20/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Bu=
t the problem is that the CLL is fossilized; it has not been updated in yea=
rs, maybe decades. It does not reflect the various reforms over the years; =
not the cmevla-brivla merge, not any of the new cmavo or selma&#39;o, not e=
ven xorlo. It&#39;s also not reflected any changes and tightening in meta-l=
inguistic terminology; it uses {cmene} instead of {cmevla}, for example.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Of course, though, this &quot;new CLL&quot; has to b=
e on the Wiki, and able to be edited to reflect any future reforms; otherwi=
se it&#39;s just end up like the current CLL, or Loglan before it. It can&#=
39;t belong to me, to la gleki, to la selpahi, or anyone, but everyone.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>{.ie pei doi ro do}</div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"=
><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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