Received: from mail-qc0-f185.google.com ([209.85.216.185]:33241) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrg19-00079s-Jw for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:12:43 -0700 Received: by qcvp6 with SMTP id p6sf32008780qcv.0 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:12:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=iVAqThZ4Xki5LR7CgKLW4wdKxY4K1vs7QB6wqy04A4E=; b=LMu9IuEi+uuDlPbzY3/mLsVte6V04A+r1hy/cl7wpFFbv9zLl7eEOPJB+bLB8nLBuV jbiYbQvTiWCaveqa5x4CcDekFzjyDFtlNyN/pFkTbjOYP9pg+dIyFJC4oFPB85Sh+BXm AUsI2Lbbx42j5xeTXLWkXuzhKr20SjUGynOHmzshUvObYjrqWzrsSA/rXi2JM5am4y0K ZjPMY79gxZH8r9hpvuA5JOCFacFiurZB1hOg7ymklYSM4wancRmCIpD7sVegvZT9TVZ8 SCDpL3mqaSatQGqNNvnrVXdHtYWj1OBVzd0JBz9ePCqYK6lDRqDPgUsb50owtaKz4/+A taPg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=iVAqThZ4Xki5LR7CgKLW4wdKxY4K1vs7QB6wqy04A4E=; b=gkjfCSUYXiOV67sIqsndjNFwE6+KiN5Y2AHAe6smOhG1HfQlLS+M4fd81YChfuZHDr LOB9aDAGIOi7iaGTPQyrCWbOVpHulGtX3gl2gI9uai4U5ZPmGedF9u5MjM5hQsSs8kRM qTUjrTqpejbv3XBjlvFa70BzMMMHQDLQgcoFvbzh1T4Q5GlOpDiHeBHAzX1UqrJoHQ2s /M/tBfcsWTk5A+nfAFHi5njRYH788l0C9jOVQG+eS8+mFQX2bSPWJ7tOPUmx0ji6u3PX uRgt0ChJ4j29JqkZnJcYkhbQ1ku7UDK5rn8bZa8qPvt7C/0HlwXk2pIXr1JqaSxdGCEG A6LQ== X-Received: by 10.50.7.101 with SMTP id i5mr158716iga.15.1431321153579; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.47.232 with SMTP id v101ls1642544iov.99.gmail; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.4.34 with SMTP id h2mr138089igh.7.1431321153336; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 22:12:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Spheniscine To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6fa4fb48-8814-416f-b1fb-f25e2dcc75dc@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] selma'o Documentation (or, rewriting the CLL?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_347_869204548.1431321151883" X-Original-Sender: spheniscine@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_347_869204548.1431321151883 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_348_1537071342.1431321151884" ------=_Part_348_1537071342.1431321151884 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think the thing with the CLL is that it's often not so much *wrong* under the new proposals (although the cmevla-brivla merge would cause its subtitle *.i la .lojban. mo* to be incorrect) as that there is a lot of clutter; a lot of things that are made much easier by new developments. Like the whole thing about the four stages of fu'ivla: Stage one is now best done using *la'oi* or *me'oi*. Stage two, under the cmevla-brivla merge, would be just a bare cmevla. Stage three can be dropped altogether; they were long and difficult to pronounce and no one liked them anyway. And stage four is when you make it a zi'evla: a word that didn't exist at the time of the CLL, and got confused with the term fu'ivla that should properly just mean loan word ("copy-word") and not say anything about morphology. On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 9:52:24 PM UTC+8, Latro wrote: > > While there are problems, I don't think this is as bad as you are making > it out to be. Xorlo did not change syntax. The cmevla-brivla merge (if that > is semi-official now) makes a minor change in syntax; basically LA works > the same as LE did to begin with, which is pretty much exactly what you > would expect. Perhaps we could compile a list of the completely new selma'o > that actually get used in practice. > > I know I in particular have made a point of trying to use existing selma'o > with my coined cmavo. Four of my cmavo in JVS have a selma'o I made up, two > of these cmavo being in the same selma'o. Details: > {jai'a} was made for fun because I saw a use case for it, but it is only > useful in the same way that {jai} is, and is much less frequently > applicable. > {no'oi} and {po'oi} were made for symmetry back when I was actively > working on fancylojban-ish stuff. We don't really have the brivla to make > good use of them right now, and I doubt we will anytime soon. > {ju'ei} is quite useful when it is desirable, but that is infrequent. > Indeed I can't think of a situation where I would want to use {ju'ei} in a > literal translation of well-written English, because in English this is > either bad style or simply unintelligible. > > My remaining nine cmavo all use official selma'o, specifically ZO, ME, > LAhE, NAhE, KE, XI, ZOhU, LE. I would strongly encourage people with ideas > for cmavo to try to twist them into existing selma'o if at all possible. > > The unofficial selma'o I have actually seen a fair bit in chat: ZOhOI, > LOhAI/SAhAI/LEhAI, MEhOI, ZEhEI. The rest? Easily able to be ignored for a > long time, in my view. > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > > > > > On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:14 AM, Spheniscine > wrote: > >> So I faced a problem: One could look up what a cmavo is supposed to mean, >> and see the selma'o it belongs to. The problem is that there is no current >> reference as to what the selma'o mean, and its syntax; little things like >> whether {na'e fetsi mlatu} refers to a cat that is non-female or something >> that isn't a female cat (turns out, it's the first. To express the second, >> you need {na'e ke fetsi mlatu [ke'e]}, or {na'e fetsi bo mlatu}). And sure, >> one could use the ilmentufa parser, but that won't tell you about the >> little details like the possible different functions of certain selma'o >> like BO and NAI, depending on position. I also wanted very rough >> correspondences of certain selma'o to common parts of speech like >> "prepositions" "articles" etc., which you can't find on a simple search. Of >> course, I do realize that these correspondences are in fact very rough, and >> that the selma'o resist any strict classification to those terms, but I >> wanted there to be at least a starting point. >> >> So then, I brought up the idea of writing a documentation for the >> selma'o; after some encouragement, I started this wiki page: >> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation) >> >> *However*, I soon ran into a second problem - defining the Lojbanic >> metalinguistic terms that we keep throwing around, like {selbri}, {sumti}, >> {tanru}, and of course, {selma'o}. You can see the results of my attempt on >> that page; I just ended up tying myself in knots defining each term in >> terms of other terms. This won't quite do; they need to be defined from the >> ground up, and a mere glossary is not quite sufficient for that. >> >> So then I got to thinking... that's what the CLL is supposed to do, >> right? {la selpa'i} even pointed out a page in the CLL that has much the >> same function as my page was meant to be for: >> http://lojban.github.io/cll/20/ >> >> But the problem is that the CLL is fossilized; it has not been updated in >> years, maybe decades. It does not reflect the various reforms over the >> years; not the cmevla-brivla merge, not any of the new cmavo or selma'o, >> not even xorlo. It's also not reflected any changes and tightening in >> meta-linguistic terminology; it uses {cmene} instead of {cmevla}, for >> example. >> >> Of course, though, this "new CLL" has to be on the Wiki, and able to be >> edited to reflect any future reforms; otherwise it's just end up like the >> current CLL, or Loglan before it. It can't belong to me, to la gleki, to la >> selpahi, or anyone, but everyone. >> >> {.ie pei doi ro do} >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_348_1537071342.1431321151884 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the thing with the CLL is that it's often not so m= uch wrong under the new proposals (although the cmevla-brivla m= erge would cause its subtitle .i la .lojban. mo to be incorrect= ) as that there is a lot of clutter; a lot of things that are made much eas= ier by new developments. Like the whole thing about the four stages of fu'i= vla: Stage one is now best done using la'oi or me'oi. St= age two, under the cmevla-brivla merge, would be just a bare cmevla. Stage = three can be dropped altogether; they were long and difficult to pronounce = and no one liked them anyway. And stage four is when you make it a zi'evla:= a word that didn't exist at the time of the CLL, and got confused with the= term fu'ivla that should properly just mean loan word ("copy-word") and no= t say anything about morphology.

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 9:52:24= PM UTC+8, Latro wrote:
While there are problems,= I don't think this is as bad as you are making it out to be. Xorlo did not= change syntax. The cmevla-brivla merge (if that is semi-official now) make= s a minor change in syntax; basically LA works the same as LE did to begin = with, which is pretty much exactly what you would expect. Perhaps we could = compile a list of the completely new selma'o that actually get used in prac= tice.

I know I in particular have made a point of trying to u= se existing selma'o with my coined cmavo. Four of my cmavo in JVS have a se= lma'o I made up, two of these cmavo being in the same selma'o. Details:
= {jai'a} was made for fun because I saw a use case for it, but it is only us= eful in the same way that {jai} is, and is much less frequently applicable.=
{no'oi} and {po'oi} were made for symmetry back when I was actively wo= rking on fancylojban-ish stuff. We don't really have the brivla to make goo= d use of them right now, and I doubt we will anytime soon.
{ju'ei} is q= uite useful when it is desirable, but that is infrequent. Indeed I can't th= ink of a situation where I would want to use {ju'ei} in a literal translati= on of well-written English, because in English this is either bad style or = simply unintelligible.

My remaining nine cmavo all use official sel= ma'o, specifically ZO, ME, LAhE, NAhE, KE, XI, ZOhU, LE. I would strongly e= ncourage people with ideas for cmavo to try to twist them into existing sel= ma'o if at all possible.

The unofficial selma'o I have ac= tually seen a fair bit in chat: ZOhOI, LOhAI/SAhAI/LEhAI, MEhOI, ZEhEI. The= rest? Easily able to be ignored for a long time, in my view.

=
mi'e la latro'a mu'o

=



On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:14 AM, Spheniscine <sphen...@gmail.com> wrote:
So I faced = a problem: One could look up what a cmavo is supposed to mean, and see the = selma'o it belongs to. The problem is that there is no current reference as= to what the selma'o mean, and its syntax; little things like whether {na'e= fetsi mlatu} refers to a cat that is non-female or something that isn't a = female cat (turns out, it's the first. To express the second, you need {na'= e ke fetsi mlatu [ke'e]}, or {na'e fetsi bo mlatu}). And sure, one could us= e the ilmentufa parser, but that won't tell you about the little details li= ke the possible different functions of certain selma'o like BO and NAI, dep= ending on position. I also wanted very rough correspondences of certain sel= ma'o to common parts of speech like "prepositions" "articles" etc., which y= ou can't find on a simple search. Of course, I do realize that these corres= pondences are in fact very rough, and that the selma'o resist any strict cl= assification to those terms, but I wanted there to be at least a starting p= oint.

So then, I brought up the idea of writing a docume= ntation for the selma'o; after some encouragement, I started this wiki page= : http://mw.loj= ban.org/papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)



But the problem = is that the CLL is fossilized; it has not been updated in years, maybe deca= des. It does not reflect the various reforms over the years; not the cmevla= -brivla merge, not any of the new cmavo or selma'o, not even xorlo. It's al= so not reflected any changes and tightening in meta-linguistic terminology;= it uses {cmene} instead of {cmevla}, for example.

Of course, though, this "new CLL" has to be on the Wiki, and able to be ed= ited to reflect any future reforms; otherwise it's just end up like the cur= rent CLL, or Loglan before it. It can't belong to me, to la gleki, to la se= lpahi, or anyone, but everyone.

{.ie pei doi ro do= }

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To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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