Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 22:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Spheniscine <spheniscine@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <51c80b11-183b-46ce-8a27-fc0b38553fd0@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <6fa4fb48-8814-416f-b1fb-f25e2dcc75dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <6fa4fb48-8814-416f-b1fb-f25e2dcc75dc@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban] Re: selma'o Documentation (or, rewriting the CLL?)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_4803_1354982455.1431323878998"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

------=_Part_4803_1354982455.1431323878998
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_4804_1402669948.1431323879007"

------=_Part_4804_1402669948.1431323879007
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

OK, an *important question:* Are there any copyright or license 
restrictions in the use of the CLL? Can we just start copying pages from it 
wholesale into the Wiki, and begin making adjustments to it for readability 
and currentness?

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 1:14:24 PM UTC+8, Spheniscine wrote:
>
> So I faced a problem: One could look up what a cmavo is supposed to mean, 
> and see the selma'o it belongs to. The problem is that there is no current 
> reference as to what the selma'o mean, and its syntax; little things like 
> whether {na'e fetsi mlatu} refers to a cat that is non-female or something 
> that isn't a female cat (turns out, it's the first. To express the second, 
> you need {na'e ke fetsi mlatu [ke'e]}, or {na'e fetsi bo mlatu}). And sure, 
> one could use the ilmentufa parser, but that won't tell you about the 
> little details like the possible different functions of certain selma'o 
> like BO and NAI, depending on position. I also wanted very rough 
> correspondences of certain selma'o to common parts of speech like 
> "prepositions" "articles" etc., which you can't find on a simple search. Of 
> course, I do realize that these correspondences are in fact very rough, and 
> that the selma'o resist any strict classification to those terms, but I 
> wanted there to be at least a starting point.
>
> So then, I brought up the idea of writing a documentation for the selma'o; 
> after some encouragement, I started this wiki page: 
> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)
>
> *However*, I soon ran into a second problem - defining the Lojbanic 
> metalinguistic terms that we keep throwing around, like {selbri}, {sumti}, 
> {tanru}, and of course, {selma'o}. You can see the results of my attempt on 
> that page; I just ended up tying myself in knots defining each term in 
> terms of other terms. This won't quite do; they need to be defined from the 
> ground up, and a mere glossary is not quite sufficient for that.
>
> So then I got to thinking... that's what the CLL is supposed to do, right? 
> {la selpa'i} even pointed out a page in the CLL that has much the same 
> function as my page was meant to be for: http://lojban.github.io/cll/20/
>
> But the problem is that the CLL is fossilized; it has not been updated in 
> years, maybe decades. It does not reflect the various reforms over the 
> years; not the cmevla-brivla merge, not any of the new cmavo or selma'o, 
> not even xorlo. It's also not reflected any changes and tightening in 
> meta-linguistic terminology; it uses {cmene} instead of {cmevla}, for 
> example.
>
> Of course, though, this "new CLL" has to be on the Wiki, and able to be 
> edited to reflect any future reforms; otherwise it's just end up like the 
> current CLL, or Loglan before it. It can't belong to me, to la gleki, to la 
> selpahi, or anyone, but everyone.
>
> {.ie pei doi ro do}
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_4804_1402669948.1431323879007
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">OK, an <b>important question:</b>&nbsp;Are there any copyr=
ight or license restrictions in the use of the CLL? Can we just start copyi=
ng pages from it wholesale into the Wiki, and begin making adjustments to i=
t for readability and currentness?<br><br>On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 1:14:2=
4 PM UTC+8, Spheniscine wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">So I faced a problem: One could look up what a cmavo is su=
pposed to mean, and see the selma'o it belongs to. The problem is that ther=
e is no current reference as to what the selma'o mean, and its syntax; litt=
le things like whether {na'e fetsi mlatu} refers to a cat that is non-femal=
e or something that isn't a female cat (turns out, it's the first. To expre=
ss the second, you need {na'e ke fetsi mlatu [ke'e]}, or {na'e fetsi bo mla=
tu}). And sure, one could use the ilmentufa parser, but that won't tell you=
 about the little details like the possible different functions of certain =
selma'o like BO and NAI, depending on position. I also wanted very rough co=
rrespondences of certain selma'o to common parts of speech like "prepositio=
ns" "articles" etc., which you can't find on a simple search. Of course, I =
do realize that these correspondences are in fact very rough, and that the =
selma'o resist any strict classification to those terms, but I wanted there=
 to be at least a starting point.<div><br></div><div>So then, I brought up =
the idea of writing a documentation for the selma'o; after some encourageme=
nt, I started this wiki page:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo=
_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"n=
ofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%=
2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2Fpapri%2Flo_selma%2527o_ca%2527irvei_(selma%2527o_Docum=
entation)\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6W4h8qE2M3B8l0wl8XtHdPXsDYg';=
return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A=
%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2Fpapri%2Flo_selma%2527o_ca%2527irvei_(selma%2527o_Docu=
mentation)\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF6W4h8qE2M3B8l0wl8XtHdPXsDYg'=
;return true;">http://mw.lojban.org/<wbr>papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_<wbr=
>(selma%27o_Documentation)</a></div><div><br></div><div><b>However</b>, I s=
oon ran into a second problem - defining the Lojbanic metalinguistic terms =
that we keep throwing around, like {selbri}, {sumti}, {tanru}, and of cours=
e, {selma'o}. You can see the results of my attempt on that page; I just en=
ded up tying myself in knots defining each term in terms of other terms. Th=
is won't quite do; they need to be defined from the ground up, and a mere g=
lossary is not quite sufficient for that.</div><div><br></div><div>So then =
I got to thinking... that's what the CLL is supposed to do, right? {la selp=
a'i} even pointed out a page in the CLL that has much the same function as =
my page was meant to be for:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/20=
/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'http://ww=
w.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Flojban.github.io%2Fcll%2F20%2F\46sa\75D\4=
6sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGoROVczu3rFt6QyVotbw6LvYBzVA';return true;" onclic=
k=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Flojban.github.=
io%2Fcll%2F20%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGoROVczu3rFt6QyVotbw6Lv=
YBzVA';return true;">http://lojban.github.io/<wbr>cll/20/</a></div><div><br=
></div><div>But the problem is that the CLL is fossilized; it has not been =
updated in years, maybe decades. It does not reflect the various reforms ov=
er the years; not the cmevla-brivla merge, not any of the new cmavo or selm=
a'o, not even xorlo. It's also not reflected any changes and tightening in =
meta-linguistic terminology; it uses {cmene} instead of {cmevla}, for examp=
le.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, though, this "new CLL" has to be on=
 the Wiki, and able to be edited to reflect any future reforms; otherwise i=
t's just end up like the current CLL, or Loglan before it. It can't belong =
to me, to la gleki, to la selpahi, or anyone, but everyone.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>{.ie pei doi ro do}</div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_4804_1402669948.1431323879007--
------=_Part_4803_1354982455.1431323878998--