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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:34:40 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+jqhWV0txPuG7uThvXXto+OZLUGzHL+4-wPb6F1XTRO2w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Proposal for new cmavo: {vau'u}
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2015-05-11 10:54 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine (la zipcpi) <spheniscine@gmail.com>:

> I'm actually kinda wondering if we would be willing to use our last
> monosyllabic cmavo, {xau}, for this.
>

Before that it was proposed for:
* a synonym of a useful preposition {seva'u} otherwise known as a
"beneficiary case tag"
* a generalized question word creating a question out of lo sumti, lo
sumka'i and lo cnima'o e.g.

{zo'e xau} = {ma}
{co'e xau} = {mo}

I actually turn out to use it quite often for afterthought attitudinal, due
> to its relative freedom of context. No need to worry about whether {vau} is
> sufficient or even possible {xau a'inai}. That extra syllable might make
> the difference for how well it is accepted among beginners, who often
> mistakenly attach attitudinals to the last word of a sentence.
>
> While we're at it I've had a look at the other xVV cmavo. {xai} seems fine
> and usable.
>

Where is {xai} used? I can't remember any live usage except a bunch of
sentences in Tatoeba.


> {xei} doesn't see much use, but {rei} really needs a replacement, and
> making it multisyllabic would break the pattern.
>
> But {zo xoi ki'a sai}? Can't make sense of the definition, and I can't see
> how it is useful.
>

This {xoi} is similar to {sei} but converts clauses (lo bridi) not to
attitudinals/text comments but to adverbs/prepositions like {fi'o} does but
with a different grammar.


>
> On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 4:04:48 PM UTC+8, Spheniscine (la zipcpi) wrote:
>>
>> I think it might be useful to have a new cmavo, {vau'u}, which is in its
>> own selma'o. It would act as a "super famyma'o / super vau"; acting as any
>> number of {vau}s needed to close off a sentence.
>>
>> Why? Attitudinals, mostly; it'd allow adding attitudinals as an
>> afterthought, attaching it to the entire sentence rather than the last
>> thing in it. {vau} is sufficient for simple sentences (e.g. {do sidju mi
>> vau ui}), but more complex sentences with subclauses at the end may require
>> several {vau}, which just feels wrong. For example
>>
>> Instead of: {do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu vau vau vau ui}
>> You can have: {do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu vau'u ui}
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2015-05-11 10:54 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine (la zipcpi) <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spheniscine@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spheniscine@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<span style=3D"line-height:17px">I&#39;m actually kinda wondering if we wou=
ld be willing to use our last monosyllabic cmavo, {xau}, for this.</span></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Before that it was proposed for:</div>=
<div>* a synonym of a useful preposition {seva&#39;u} otherwise known as a =
&quot;beneficiary case tag&quot;</div><div>* a generalized question word cr=
eating a question out of lo sumti, lo sumka&#39;i and lo cnima&#39;o e.g.</=
div><div><br></div><div>{zo&#39;e xau} =3D {ma}</div><div>{co&#39;e xau} =
=3D {mo}</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><span style=3D"line-height:17px">I actually turn out to use it quite ofte=
n for afterthought attitudinal, due to its relative freedom of context. No =
need to worry about whether {vau} is sufficient or even possible {xau a&#39=
;inai}. That extra syllable might make the difference for how well it is ac=
cepted among beginners, who often mistakenly attach attitudinals to the las=
t word of a sentence.</span><div><span style=3D"line-height:17px"><br></spa=
n><div>While we&#39;re at it I&#39;ve had a look at the other xVV cmavo. {x=
ai} seems fine and usable.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>Where is {xai} used? I can&#39;t remember any live usage except a bunch o=
f sentences in Tatoeba.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div> {xei} doesn&#39;t see much use, but {rei} rea=
lly needs a replacement, and making it multisyllabic would break the patter=
n.</div><div><br></div><div>But {zo xoi ki&#39;a sai}? Can&#39;t make sense=
 of the definition, and I can&#39;t see how it is useful.</div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>This {xoi} is similar to {sei} but convert=
s clauses (lo bridi) not to attitudinals/text comments but to adverbs/prepo=
sitions like {fi&#39;o} does but with a different grammar.</div><div><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"h5"><br><br>On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 4:04:48 PM UTC+8, Spheniscine =
(la zipcpi) wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margi=
n-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
I think it might be useful to have a new cmavo, {vau&#39;u}, which is in it=
s own selma&#39;o. It would act as a &quot;super famyma&#39;o / super vau&q=
uot;; acting as any number of {vau}s needed to close off a sentence.<div><b=
r></div><div>Why? Attitudinals, mostly; it&#39;d allow adding attitudinals =
as an afterthought, attaching it to the entire sentence rather than the las=
t thing in it. {vau} is sufficient for simple sentences (e.g. {do sidju mi =
vau ui}), but more complex sentences with subclauses at the end may require=
 several {vau}, which just feels wrong. For example</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Instead of: {do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu vau vau vau ui}=C2=A0=
</div><div>You can have: {do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu vau&#39;u =
ui}<br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D=
"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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