Received: from mail-wg0-f62.google.com ([74.125.82.62]:32835) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Ysrhq-00045t-7G for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:47 -0700 Received: by wggy19 with SMTP id y19sf30746729wgg.0 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=mjAZc87RsDySYSr/v4TJFcHtfkuvSPqZl6Il6xNHuOc=; b=tbzMsQ8Ap/Jr86bip2jHuEqjLSDtd0ZA8x0v3UtG+vZ08Nc0PuQbVlG8ryeECitLuF lQ5zk50LscXtc36/jWprOcCn3SBgdyejRcAwz7tYrMT4MvBrol5eZJFpFOInXLO2HZYb Hp+XQNGShgkNda4xWLgmNY7FYKU8Wp8z8MeDzBy2PTFdiXfW89qVoVHswZkG23kx3mXy b9VP+hai4OnEhxKcDTl7rRRDihtJPFdKn/InjHHtQIwyx6HnzRN6q0Qaukmc3YX3/uIY tVplx0QbvqQN+oKQprw6LvkU9950CokZygzpHop/ffOw6hY93sxk9RHZBlSik1sne557 Ebow== X-Received: by 10.152.29.166 with SMTP id l6mr56798lah.25.1431604409964; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.170.163 with SMTP id an3ls412115lac.90.gmail; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.171.41 with SMTP id ar9mr2788909lbc.24.1431604409277; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x233.google.com (mail-wg0-x233.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q10si485126wiz.0.2015.05.14.04.53.29 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::233; Received: by mail-wg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id v19so10544386wgu.1 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.231.41 with SMTP id td9mr48304479wic.69.1431604409124; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Thu, 14 May 2015 04:53:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2815661.sajAn3Zckj@caracal> References: <04cecf13-9f41-4589-9e37-e3987ef53330@googlegroups.com> <2815661.sajAn3Zckj@caracal> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 14:53:08 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Possible polysemy clashes for "regular affixes" in lujvo? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134c5cc43cb2505160960cb X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1134c5cc43cb2505160960cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-14 14:21 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat : > On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 19:15:19 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > In both examples case changes only for the first two places. "from" and > > "to" prepositions stay the same. > > However, for -gau and -bi'o lujvo one has to mentally shift the place > > structure. So instead of {mi djuno fi do} you get {ra jungau mi fo do}. > > This may be harder to use since you have to learn two place structure > > whereas in major world languages almost one. > > Lojban doesn't have accusative or ergative morphosyntactic alignment. It has a preposition that parallels ergative a lot. > It has > an indefinitely long series of numbered places. We are talking about combining tags with FA, not about FA alone. English has four numbered > places (the fourth is quite rarely used) and can move 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 > (moving > 1 to a place tagged by "by"), but doesn't shift them the way Lojban does. > > Children have no problem learning ergative languages. I see no reason why > children can't learn place-shift languages. It's adults that have problem= s > learning a different kind of language than they're used to. > As I explained above the problem is not in place shift structure but in the number of place structures to learn. English reuses the same place structure when converting verbs to transitive like in the example of "to move". Lojban also reuses the place structure in {jai gau} mode. Being able to remember infinite number of lujvo with arbitrary place structures (lujvo mode) has to be tested. Although I won't. > Pierre > -- > When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. > J=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada, j=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1134c5cc43cb2505160960cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-14 14:21 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Wednesday, May= 13, 2015 19:15:19 Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> In both examples case changes only for the first two places. "fro= m" and
> "to" prepositions stay the same.
> However, for -gau and -bi'o lujvo one has to mentally shift the pl= ace
> structure. So instead of {mi djuno fi do} you get {ra jungau mi fo do}= .
> This may be harder to use since you have to learn two place structure<= br> > whereas in major world languages almost one.

Lojban doesn't have accusative or ergative morphosyntactic align= ment.

It has a preposition that parallels e= rgative a lot.
=C2=A0
It has=
an indefinitely long series of numbered places.

=
We are talking about combining tags with FA, not about FA alone.
=

English has four numbered places (the fourth is quite rarely used) and can move 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 (mov= ing
1 to a place tagged by "by"), but doesn't shift them the way = Lojban does.

Children have no problem learning ergative languages. I see no reason why children can't learn place-shift languages. It's adults that have p= roblems
learning a different kind of language than they're used to.

As I explained above the problem is not in place s= hift structure but in the number of place structures to learn.
En= glish reuses the same place structure when converting verbs to transitive l= ike in the example of "to move".
Lojban also reuses the= place structure in {jai gau} mode.

Being able to = remember infinite number of lujvo with arbitrary place structures (lujvo mo= de) has to be tested. Although I won't.


Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
J=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada, j=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1134c5cc43cb2505160960cb--