Received: from mail-vn0-f60.google.com ([209.85.216.60]:33519) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YuHZ7-0001FT-Fj for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:34 -0700 Received: by vnbg190 with SMTP id g190sf1997984vnb.0 for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PT7x7U7Zilg3vuJn9VVW57SY/A6xwSzaZffOZtMg7Lo=; b=U5ZaiAx0TG/XEXU7TUVakCchLqX6cnMdRA+++pVwind5Bo/5k72lxcnOzAlD7h824n eQDa7YjsneQa74ae4Tm5TYtQFc1ZH0KhkIU28+gMePkCVUZHUxY+7eCqxaWvQS2fBlAE KVKYrmNpKsT+klUd9GrnxCwEECPh+920W24MtvgNRom9BVpPo5zOSM8+u79sZ+NtI+r8 UmxO+icBGRMiJIVetCZQg1BqLOMFCJ1Ir348ZU1DBVcjw55Lu+5s4b6pyDbHHj386JMB CNqlYndQCRUQZXMfINaI5Tc0wFE8h4g0BZ3imJDAxX2oXmsC+nAi4l/Q6/ud0pkjSEwB dbdg== X-Received: by 10.140.89.168 with SMTP id v37mr299146qgd.7.1431942143430; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.105.134 with SMTP id c6ls3035417qgf.66.gmail; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.243.10 with SMTP id wu10mr32262170vdc.9.1431942143210; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22d.google.com (mail-ig0-x22d.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x12si629820igx.1.2015.05.18.02.42.23 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d; Received: by igbyr2 with SMTP id yr2so43235667igb.0 for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.79.202 with SMTP id l10mr11708402igx.7.1431942140147; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.18.135 with HTTP; Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <04cecf13-9f41-4589-9e37-e3987ef53330@googlegroups.com> <2815661.sajAn3Zckj@caracal> Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:42:20 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Possible polysemy clashes for "regular affixes" in lujvo? From: Remo Dentato To: lojban Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122aaee9a3eba05165802bd X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e0122aaee9a3eba05165802bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure if this is what gleki was referring to: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mp2arQqeeFob9bx502wLF5pokM6W9Jk-P_O= 5ewkgWOs/edit?usp=3Dsharing I don't think we moved too far with this list having been reviewed but I would really love for it to happen. On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-05-14 14:21 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat : > >> On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 19:15:19 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >> > In both examples case changes only for the first two places. "from" an= d >> > "to" prepositions stay the same. >> > However, for -gau and -bi'o lujvo one has to mentally shift the place >> > structure. So instead of {mi djuno fi do} you get {ra jungau mi fo do}= . >> > This may be harder to use since you have to learn two place structure >> > whereas in major world languages almost one. >> >> Lojban doesn't have accusative or ergative morphosyntactic alignment. > > > It has a preposition that parallels ergative a lot. > > >> It has >> an indefinitely long series of numbered places. > > > We are talking about combining tags with FA, not about FA alone. > > English has four numbered >> places (the fourth is quite rarely used) and can move 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 >> (moving >> 1 to a place tagged by "by"), but doesn't shift them the way Lojban does= . >> >> Children have no problem learning ergative languages. I see no reason wh= y >> children can't learn place-shift languages. It's adults that have proble= ms >> learning a different kind of language than they're used to. >> > > As I explained above the problem is not in place shift structure but in > the number of place structures to learn. > English reuses the same place structure when converting verbs to > transitive like in the example of "to move". > Lojban also reuses the place structure in {jai gau} mode. > > Being able to remember infinite number of lujvo with arbitrary place > structures (lujvo mode) has to be tested. Although I won't. > > >> Pierre >> -- >> When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. >> J=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada, j=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0122aaee9a3eba05165802bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think we moved too far with this list having been = reviewed but I would really love for it to happen.



On Thu, May 14, 2015 at = 1:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-14= 14:21 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 19:15:19 Gleki Ar= xokuna wrote:
> In both examples case changes only for the first two places. "fro= m" and
> "to" prepositions stay the same.
> However, for -gau and -bi'o lujvo one has to mentally shift the pl= ace
> structure. So instead of {mi djuno fi do} you get {ra jungau mi fo do}= .
> This may be harder to use since you have to learn two place structure<= br> > whereas in major world languages almost one.

Lojban doesn't have accusative or ergative morphosyntactic align= ment.

It has a preposition that para= llels ergative a lot.
=C2=A0
It has
an indefinitely long series of numbered places.

=
We are talking about combining tags with FA, not about FA alone= .

Engl= ish has four numbered
places (the fourth is quite rarely used) and can move 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 (mov= ing
1 to a place tagged by "by"), but doesn't shift them the way = Lojban does.

Children have no problem learning ergative languages. I see no reason why children can't learn place-shift languages. It's adults that have p= roblems
learning a different kind of language than they're used to.

As I explained above the problem is not in = place shift structure but in the number of place structures to learn.
=
English reuses the same place structure when converting verbs to trans= itive like in the example of "to move".
Lojban also reu= ses the place structure in {jai gau} mode.

Being a= ble to remember infinite number of lujvo with arbitrary place structures (l= ujvo mode) has to be tested. Although I won't.


Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
J=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada, j=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada.

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