Received: from mail-la0-f55.google.com ([209.85.215.55]:32811) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YuHzm-0001ZE-Vm for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:10:11 -0700 Received: by lamq1 with SMTP id q1sf7377256lam.0 for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=XC0VO268hYWkTsowO09rAjRNakKp0jtP8AmvEm8yonk=; b=nUgXpVNnHbfJYha+bwKWiXneqNS/3T1U7KsmoXHTjxfnVWA8upHtHpv1YvbwpcMTLr qzzXJuWk2SF4po7rS9Os8ql+tXeqoBj6tIRcPZz1O09FFU3Ji7OWypiYPXXfSg/oj/i3 mnOC/vDMOcL6lmnJ1tlZfWY4JjaPfiR+phH/mGm0k5zpQO66lrCS4glaS040bjI4VlPK LHrKTo2TOgDKdryuEexqTsZiHvBo0rg06cA68idf/AlMJwp9+KsHp/3o0CE8wWWqsLC2 3/nsGbH57vlLfEwujjDvzqvmxof39ZNFoTYxlZNvw85aHynwgxXVoXnnHaIIwdATvvAA uTqw== X-Received: by 10.152.5.100 with SMTP id r4mr248218lar.13.1431943796004; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.4.104 with SMTP id j8ls605117laj.106.gmail; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.118.162 with SMTP id kn2mr17409171lbb.22.1431943794709; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si353823wiz.0.2015.05.18.03.09.54 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::235; Received: by mail-wi0-x235.google.com with SMTP id nf17so62784128wic.1 for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.95.10 with SMTP id dg10mr20801476wib.41.1431943794548; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Mon, 18 May 2015 03:09:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <04cecf13-9f41-4589-9e37-e3987ef53330@googlegroups.com> <2815661.sajAn3Zckj@caracal> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 13:09:34 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Possible polysemy clashes for "regular affixes" in lujvo? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447f833666130516586521 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04447f833666130516586521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, those are filjvo that I was referring to. But as I said shifting all places instead of just shifting one or two may pose problems. bai, gau and mau/me'a can be used as prepositions which eliminates the need in adding zillions of new words and the need in additionally memorizing short rafsi. Instead of bra- you may use {ve'u}. In fact just recently I pointed out this technical problem of why people are forced to invent lujvo: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/O1Bn7SVIy4k Although, we should ignore them. E.g. tce- could be used as a prefix that doesn't shift places. This would eliminate such questions as {mi gleki mutce - i do gleki mutce ma}. If more elements are needed in future they can be invented when needed. E.g. I invented {zu'ai} to say {mi ce do zu'ai tavla} =3D {mi jo'u do simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u tavla} (ignoring focus) Such solutions as opposed to lujvo solutions are more powerful since they allow inserting any needed words, e.g. attitudinals in between. lujvo don't allow any infixes. 2015-05-18 12:42 GMT+03:00 Remo Dentato : > Not sure if this is what gleki was referring to: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mp2arQqeeFob9bx502wLF5pokM6W9Jk-P= _O5ewkgWOs/edit?usp=3Dsharing > > I don't think we moved too far with this list having been reviewed but I > would really love for it to happen. > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-05-14 14:21 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat : >> >>> On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 19:15:19 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> > In both examples case changes only for the first two places. "from" a= nd >>> > "to" prepositions stay the same. >>> > However, for -gau and -bi'o lujvo one has to mentally shift the place >>> > structure. So instead of {mi djuno fi do} you get {ra jungau mi fo do= }. >>> > This may be harder to use since you have to learn two place structure >>> > whereas in major world languages almost one. >>> >>> Lojban doesn't have accusative or ergative morphosyntactic alignment. >> >> >> It has a preposition that parallels ergative a lot. >> >> >>> It has >>> an indefinitely long series of numbered places. >> >> >> We are talking about combining tags with FA, not about FA alone. >> >> English has four numbered >>> places (the fourth is quite rarely used) and can move 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 >>> (moving >>> 1 to a place tagged by "by"), but doesn't shift them the way Lojban doe= s. >>> >>> Children have no problem learning ergative languages. I see no reason w= hy >>> children can't learn place-shift languages. It's adults that have >>> problems >>> learning a different kind of language than they're used to. >>> >> >> As I explained above the problem is not in place shift structure but in >> the number of place structures to learn. >> English reuses the same place structure when converting verbs to >> transitive like in the example of "to move". >> Lojban also reuses the place structure in {jai gau} mode. >> >> Being able to remember infinite number of lujvo with arbitrary place >> structures (lujvo mode) has to be tested. Although I won't. >> >> >>> Pierre >>> -- >>> When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. >>> J=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada, j=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04447f833666130516586521 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, those are filjvo that I was referring to.
But as = I said shifting all places instead of just shifting one or two may pose pro= blems.
bai, gau and mau/me'a can be used as prepositions whic= h eliminates the need in adding zillions of new words and the need in addit= ionally memorizing short rafsi.
Instead of bra- you may use {ve&#= 39;u}.
In fact just recently I pointed out this technical problem= of why people are forced to invent lujvo:=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/forum= /#!topic/lojban/O1Bn7SVIy4k

Although, we should ignore them. E.g= .=C2=A0tce- could be used as a prefix that doesn't shift places. This w= ould eliminate such questions as {mi gleki mutce - i do gleki mutce ma}.

If more elements are needed in future they can b= e invented when needed.
E.g. I invented {zu'ai} to say {mi ce= do zu'ai tavla} =3D {mi jo'u do simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u tavl= a} (ignoring focus)

Such solutions as opposed to l= ujvo solutions are more powerful since they allow inserting any needed word= s, e.g. attitudinals in between. lujvo don't allow any infixes.




2015-05-18 12:42 GMT+03:00 Remo Dentato <= rdentato@gmail.com>:
I don't think we moved too far with this list = having been reviewed but I would really love for it to happen.


<= /div>
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna= <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-14 14:21 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <phm= a@bezitopo.org>:
On= Wednesday, May 13, 2015 19:15:19 Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> In both examples case changes only for the first two places. "fro= m" and
> "to" prepositions stay the same.
> However, for -gau and -bi'o lujvo one has to mentally shift the pl= ace
> structure. So instead of {mi djuno fi do} you get {ra jungau mi fo do}= .
> This may be harder to use since you have to learn two place structure<= br> > whereas in major world languages almost one.

Lojban doesn't have accusative or ergative morphosyntactic align= ment.

It has a preposition that para= llels ergative a lot.
=C2=A0
It has
an indefinitely long series of numbered places.

=
We are talking about combining tags with FA, not about FA alone= .

English has fou= r numbered
places (the fourth is quite rarely used) and can move 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 (mov= ing
1 to a place tagged by "by"), but doesn't shift them the way = Lojban does.

Children have no problem learning ergative languages. I see no reason why children can't learn place-shift languages. It's adults that have p= roblems
learning a different kind of language than they're used to.

As I explained above the problem is not in = place shift structure but in the number of place structures to learn.
=
English reuses the same place structure when converting verbs to trans= itive like in the example of "to move".
Lojban also reu= ses the place structure in {jai gau} mode.

Being a= ble to remember infinite number of lujvo with arbitrary place structures (l= ujvo mode) has to be tested. Although I won't.


Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
J=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada, j=C3=A1 n=C3=A3o percebe nada.

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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--
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