Received: from mail-wg0-f60.google.com ([74.125.82.60]:34034) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YxZTF-0004lK-CG for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:26:13 -0700 Received: by wggx12 with SMTP id x12sf1688153wgg.1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=gi8Iws4RpomhHrvmRzuKc/3C0HOD/xbZ+0apBY7ineU=; b=jrKVde+7oayzFHMg3WAVUJQtJ4ig3Ga5zbM2AAtYKDYTXXzEgmcyXG6/9bN2QwpTB9 +NHNfG/PJdge0t7GOfUcZIiRomJZCOy+TkT58UQmqVpkyFsgfwRmKvsRc9XkP9Jvo9zV BFtdkSmgiV41B/oP4144gXVg6hxGd1NnDMHY4adltnKOI5Kw701ufP6IH5PD4aEd85+R R2wihfMshdlk8OaZGc164AbJ7GwBFePZQLdnY+GQ8aJBfs8IhX1MqR7M+yHESMX3dyYj qpgx5agZ8JFo20ctFRk6oNChxW3tIMkk0bJO+brBlAjsEhZWTLsWRafTwLiF/9abfGmv UCOA== X-Received: by 10.152.26.132 with SMTP id l4mr160716lag.17.1432725954733; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.37.105 with SMTP id x9ls33675laj.11.gmail; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.113.11.3 with SMTP id ee3mr31997193lbd.9.1432725954113; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p12si98782wiv.1.2015.05.27.04.25.54 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::232; Received: by mail-wg0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 5so6479940wgv.1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.200 with SMTP id c8mr48862785wiy.49.1432725953965; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Wed, 27 May 2015 04:25:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2A580ECF-BBF0-43E3-8C95-2ADF1CF8A532@evertype.com> References: <1668540.L6pQx4xKKk@caracal> <9248C4CE-DAAE-4BB4-8A28-C6C579472035@evertype.com> <2A580ECF-BBF0-43E3-8C95-2ADF1CF8A532@evertype.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:25:33 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdb088bf56605170e81ea X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043bdb088bf56605170e81ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-27 14:02 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson : > On 27 May 2015, at 10:06, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > > >> 2015-05-26 22:33 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson : > >> I need someone to help me deal with questions concerning nested > quotation, and narrative structure where the narrator interjects into a > quotation. The particle =E2=80=9Csei" starts a metalinguistic discourse; = what ends > one? > > > > In short, the selbri (main verb) itself closes it by the virtue of how > its grammar works. You may see something similar for {lo} in {lo broda} a= nd > similar constructs that in 90% of cases doesn't need any terminators > (markers of the end of constructs). > > A few years ago I pointed out that punctuating and capitalizing Lojban in > the usual way did not change the language because it was just decorating > the text in various ways; if read aloud there should be no difference. > (Same as for writing Lojban in Tengwar.) > yes. If by punctuation you mean English-like punctuation like ".,!?<>" and not words. Modern parsers will accept this input. > If the se=E2=80=99u were present, or if whatever followed the > > > However, I'd prefer not nesting {sei}-clauses inside {lu ... li'u} > quotes since otherwise if you do want to quote a {sei}-clause you are lef= t > with uglier ways of doing so. > > "On this point,=E2=80=9D said Michael, "I very much agree.=E2=80=9D > > "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael. > I think given the structure a good translation for Lojban should avoid > these kinds of breaks. Easier for performance (reading aloud with charact= er > and narrator voices), too. > As you wish. With breaks it'd be *I fi la'e di'u - sei la Maikl pu cusku - mi so'i va'e tugni.* Without them *I fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni, - sei la Maikl pu cusku.* This of course backwards on how English does since you mark "said Michael" whereas written English marks the rest and the spoken English probably will use intonation. Although, some might prefer splitting {lu ... li'u} into two quotes tagged with FA. But I agree that split quotes in Lojban or English text might be hard to read for speakers of some languages. Without split quotes but with {lu ... li'u} it'd be something like *I "lu fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni li'u" pu cusku fa la Maikl.* "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael. > > Also since probably this project aims at selling books I'd prefer > replacing all compound words (lujvo) not in the dictionary with their > expanded forms to make the reading easier for people still not fluent in > Lojban. > > One doubts that a Lojban Alice will sell as well as a Latin one. I can sa= y > I have often looked things up and not found them in the dictionary. > Including very short particles. Which ones? > And in one of the dictionaries I have, =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D is listed on = its own at the > end of all the words beginning in mi-. That was odd, or an error, I guess= . > LaTeX sorting problems, most likely. > > > As for =E2=80=9CVictorian=E2=80=9D typographic principles those are IMO= compatible with > Lojban. > > Would you like to help with the project? Including possibly =E2=80=9Cregu= larizing=E2=80=9D > the text as suggested above? De-compounding compounds? Restoring balance = in > terms of =E2=80=9Cse=E2=80=99u=E2=80=9Ds? > Please, tell us til what time you accept offers to help. If at this time no one volunteers you may automatically assume that I (=3Dla gleki) volunteer shifting the task in my ToDo list higher. Also please inform us of the deadline when this task of adapting the text both in punctuation and style has to be done. > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043bdb088bf56605170e81ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-27 14:02 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>:
On 27 May 2015, at 10:06= , Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is= .my.name@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>> 2015-05-26 22:33 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>:
>> I need someone to help me deal with questions concerning nested qu= otation, and narrative structure where the narrator interjects into a quota= tion. The particle =E2=80=9Csei" starts a metalinguistic discourse; wh= at ends one?
>
> In short, the selbri (main verb) itself closes it by the virtue of how= its grammar works. You may see something similar for {lo} in {lo broda} an= d similar constructs that in 90% of cases doesn't need any terminators = (markers of the end of constructs).

A few years ago I pointed out that punctuating and capitalizing Lojb= an in the usual way did not change the language because it was just decorat= ing the text in various ways; if read aloud there should be no difference. = (Same as for writing Lojban in Tengwar.)

yes. If by punctuation you mean English-like punctuation like ".,!?&= lt;>" and not words. Modern parsers will accept this input.


If the se=E2=80=99u were present, or if whatever followed the

> However, I'd prefer not nesting {sei}-clauses inside {lu ... li= 9;u} quotes since otherwise if you do want to quote a {sei}-clause you are = left with uglier ways of doing so.

"On this point,=E2=80=9D said Michael, "I very much agree.= =E2=80=9D

"On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael.
=

I think given the structure a good translation for Lojban should avoid thes= e kinds of breaks. Easier for performance (reading aloud with character and= narrator voices), too.

As you wish. Wi= th breaks it'd be

I fi la'e di'u - = sei la Maikl pu cusku - mi so'i va'e tugni.

Without them=C2=A0
I fi la'e di'u mi so'i va= 'e tugni, - sei la Maikl pu cusku.

Thi= s of course backwards on how English does since you mark "said Michael= " whereas written English marks the rest and the spoken English probab= ly will use intonation.

Although, some might prefe= r splitting {lu ... li'u} into two quotes tagged with FA. But I agree t= hat split quotes in Lojban or English text might be hard to read for speake= rs of some languages.
Without split quotes but with {lu ... li= 9;u} it'd be something like
I "lu fi la'e di'= u mi so'i va'e tugni li'u" pu cusku fa=C2=A0la Maikl.<= /div>
"On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael.


> Also since probably this project aims at selling books I'd prefer = replacing all compound words (lujvo) not in the dictionary with their expan= ded forms to make the reading easier for people still not fluent in Lojban.=

One doubts that a Lojban Alice will sell as well as a Latin one. I c= an say I have often looked things up and not found them in the dictionary. = Including very short particles.

Which ones?=
=C2=A0
And in one of the dictionaries I h= ave, =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D is listed on its own at the end of all the words = beginning in mi-. That was odd, or an error, I guess.
=
LaTeX sorting problems, most likely.
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">
> As for =E2=80=9CVictorian=E2=80=9D typographic principles those are IM= O compatible with Lojban.

Would you like to help with the project? Including possibly =E2=80= =9Cregularizing=E2=80=9D the text as suggested above? De-compounding compou= nds? Restoring balance in terms of =E2=80=9Cse=E2=80=99u=E2=80=9Ds?

Please, tell us til what time you accept offer= s to help. If at this time no one volunteers you may automatically assume t= hat I (=3Dla gleki) volunteer shifting the task in my ToDo list higher.

Also please inform us of the deadline when this task = of adapting the text both in punctuation and style has to be done.




Michael Everson * ht= tp://www.evertype.com/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d043bdb088bf56605170e81ea--