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Subject: Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book
From: Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7bV+h-NABMN0s8Y3aBCFGwAHhV_2GaBhPEiaibQVGfe1TLdg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:13:11 +0100
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On 27 May 2015, at 12:25, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@GMAIL.COM> wrote=
:

>> A few years ago I pointed out that punctuating and capitalizing Lojban i=
n the usual way did not change the language because it was just decorating =
the text in various ways; if read aloud there should be no difference. (Sam=
e as for writing Lojban in Tengwar.)
>=20
> yes. If by punctuation you mean English-like punctuation like ".,!?<>" an=
d not words. Modern parsers will accept this input.

That=E2=80=99s what I mean.

> > However, I'd prefer not nesting {sei}-clauses inside {lu ... li'u} quot=
es since otherwise if you do want to quote a {sei}-clause you are left with=
 uglier ways of doing so.
>=20
> "On this point,=E2=80=9D said Michael, "I very much agree.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael.
>=20
> I think given the structure a good translation for Lojban should avoid th=
ese kinds of breaks. Easier for performance (reading aloud with character a=
nd narrator voices), too.
>=20
> As you wish. With breaks it'd be
>=20
> I fi la'e di'u - sei la Maikl pu cusku - mi so'i va'e tugni.

So=E2=80=A6=20

I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu cusku,=
 =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u.

But the problem again here is that for consistency (and automation) one wou=
ld expect:

I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu cusku =
se'u, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u.

Wouldn=E2=80=99t one?

> Without them=20
> I fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni, - sei la Maikl pu cusku.

So=E2=80=A6

I lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li'u sei la Maikl p=
u cusku [se=E2=80=99u].

Without punctuation between li=E2=80=99u and sei=E2=80=A6 And I still don=
=E2=80=99t understand the rationale for not closing the sei/se=E2=80=99u se=
t.

> This of course backwards on how English does since you mark "said Michael=
" whereas written English marks the rest and the spoken English probably wi=
ll use intonation.

Not entirely sure what you mean by =E2=80=9Cmark=E2=80=9D here.=20

> Although, some might prefer splitting {lu ... li'u} into two quotes tagge=
d with FA. But I agree that split quotes in Lojban or English text might be=
 hard to read for speakers of some languages.
> Without split quotes but with {lu ... li'u} it'd be something like
> I "lu fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni li'u" pu cusku fa la Maikl.
> "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael.

I would think lu/li=E2=80=99u would always be required.

>>> > Also since probably this project aims at selling books I'd prefer rep=
lacing all compound words (lujvo) not in the dictionary with their expanded=
 forms to make the reading easier for people still not fluent in Lojban.
>>=20
>> One doubts that a Lojban Alice will sell as well as a Latin one. I can s=
ay I have often looked things up and not found them in the dictionary. Incl=
uding very short particles.
>=20
> Which ones?

I don=E2=80=99t recall off-hand. Maybe it was a sorting error as you mentio=
n below.=20

>> And in one of the dictionaries I have, =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D is listed on=
 its own at the end of all the words beginning in mi-. That was odd, or an =
error, I guess.
>=20
> LaTeX sorting problems, most likely.
>=20
>>> > As for =E2=80=9CVictorian=E2=80=9D typographic principles those are I=
MO compatible with Lojban.
>>=20
>> Would you like to help with the project? Including possibly =E2=80=9Creg=
ularizing=E2=80=9D the text as suggested above? De-compounding compounds? R=
estoring balance in terms of =E2=80=9Cse=E2=80=99u=E2=80=9Ds?
>=20
> Please, tell us til what time you accept offers to help.

I=E2=80=99m interested in working with anyone interested in working on this=
 with me. Soon is good.=20

> If at this time no one volunteers you may automatically assume that I (=
=3Dla gleki) volunteer shifting the task in my ToDo list higher.

I think it would be fun working with you, and if as you say no one else is =
interested -- though other voices might be useful or interesting in the dis=
cussion @johncowan ;-) =E2=80=94 it would be great if you could shift the t=
ask higher.

> Also please inform us of the deadline when this task of adapting the text=
 both in punctuation and style has to be done.

As soon as it is done the book can be typeset and published. I suspect it m=
ight not take all that much time. But one would have to see.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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