Received: from mail-wi0-f186.google.com ([209.85.212.186]:32937) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Yxdo3-0001gl-MG for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:53 -0700 Received: by wibbw19 with SMTP id bw19sf6727669wib.0 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=9m8MlPlbSGqwZvAnPGIm6mvBwPDOFrG0mq1rlKfdseY=; b=BBdYvngPhb9Smo4uQwqA0DKPmcGLPZ7tMmLWqs6rjCPJo6ZuCDl7WCZjxPibQaF9pH su/878CMwVHHUwYbUcGSbqXfFvEyjTVMrfNE1WLfUKcHGLq97ViGn4lBNwCXSWdhfZhG 9AKDvkVqAXrOkV82jHMLAlYKjgZU386WpSQyq+F2nx6mng9xGdHOWPoG0Ao6l8BbQ9Km qkweNgebkfeEQxcwZm1TQCf9ALWXBhDzw2EuBxmO61bnhHVkM1QNf4sZ4kE9u74y3e3A rcIXhv+rX9pOKcCyFuUBZ+z+7QLni/jVgCxsl3HerrPhq2W2QHx8sEFbReaQ1Y3KGm2/ Kgcw== X-Received: by 10.152.29.5 with SMTP id f5mr344403lah.19.1432742621159; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.205.99 with SMTP id lf3ls74492lac.54.gmail; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.8.17 with SMTP id n17mr32861668laa.0.1432742620500; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q10si141747wiz.0.2015.05.27.09.03.40 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e; Received: by mail-wi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id o1so28462991wiz.1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.95.10 with SMTP id dg10mr7471257wib.41.1432742620344; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Wed, 27 May 2015 09:03:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <607B0FA1-B1D3-4DD6-A6C3-D0C9C5C4114E@evertype.com> References: <1668540.L6pQx4xKKk@caracal> <9248C4CE-DAAE-4BB4-8A28-C6C579472035@evertype.com> <2A580ECF-BBF0-43E3-8C95-2ADF1CF8A532@evertype.com> <607B0FA1-B1D3-4DD6-A6C3-D0C9C5C4114E@evertype.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:03:19 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447f83f0b75105171262dd X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04447f83f0b75105171262dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-27 16:13 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson : > On 27 May 2015, at 12:25, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > > >> A few years ago I pointed out that punctuating and capitalizing Lojban > in the usual way did not change the language because it was just decorati= ng > the text in various ways; if read aloud there should be no difference. > (Same as for writing Lojban in Tengwar.) > > > > yes. If by punctuation you mean English-like punctuation like ".,!?<>" > and not words. Modern parsers will accept this input. > > That=E2=80=99s what I mean. > > > > However, I'd prefer not nesting {sei}-clauses inside {lu ... li'u} > quotes since otherwise if you do want to quote a {sei}-clause you are lef= t > with uglier ways of doing so. > > > > "On this point,=E2=80=9D said Michael, "I very much agree.=E2=80=9D > > > > "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael. > > > > I think given the structure a good translation for Lojban should avoid > these kinds of breaks. Easier for performance (reading aloud with charact= er > and narrator voices), too. > > > > As you wish. With breaks it'd be > > > > I fi la'e di'u - sei la Maikl pu cusku - mi so'i va'e tugni. > > So=E2=80=A6 > > I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu cusk= u, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u. > > But the problem again here is that for consistency (and automation) one > would expect: > > I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu cusk= u se'u, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u. > > Wouldn=E2=80=99t one? > As you can see from the grammar it is not required there since {sei} clause is expected to be ended by its selbri, which is {pu cusku} here. So {se'u} is not required. Why so? Because this is how {sei} is defined. If you need technical details then here they are: free <- SEI-clause (terms CU-clause?)? selbri SEhU-clause? [ http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Shortened_PEG_grammar_of_Lojban ] I don't know what you mean by consistency or automation. With or without {se'u} both sentences mean the same. But why explicitly adding {se'u} if it doesn't change the meaning? > > > Without them > > I fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni, - sei la Maikl pu cusku. > > So=E2=80=A6 > > I lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li'u sei la Maikl= pu cusku [se=E2=80=99u]. > > Without punctuation between li=E2=80=99u and sei=E2=80=A6 And I still don= =E2=80=99t understand the > rationale for not closing the sei/se=E2=80=99u set. > To save two syllables. Actually if for stylistic spurposes we bane all split quotes then there is not need for {sei}. It will be just I lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li'u pu se cusku la= Maikl =3D " ... " was said by Michael. or I fe lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li'u pu cusku fa= la Maikl =3D " ... " said Michael. > > > This of course backwards on how English does since you mark "said > Michael" whereas written English marks the rest and the spoken English > probably will use intonation. > > Not entirely sure what you mean by =E2=80=9Cmark=E2=80=9D here. > Quotations marks mark the borders of the quote like what is done in Lojban by {lu ... li'u} > > > Although, some might prefer splitting {lu ... li'u} into two quotes > tagged with FA. But I agree that split quotes in Lojban or English text > might be hard to read for speakers of some languages. > > Without split quotes but with {lu ... li'u} it'd be something like > > I "lu fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni li'u" pu cusku fa la Maikl. > > "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael. > > I would think lu/li=E2=80=99u would always be required. > Depends on style but in this case I'd always use it, yes. > >>> > Also since probably this project aims at selling books I'd prefer > replacing all compound words (lujvo) not in the dictionary with their > expanded forms to make the reading easier for people still not fluent in > Lojban. > >> > >> One doubts that a Lojban Alice will sell as well as a Latin one. I can > say I have often looked things up and not found them in the dictionary. > Including very short particles. > > > > Which ones? > > I don=E2=80=99t recall off-hand. Maybe it was a sorting error as you ment= ion below. > > >> And in one of the dictionaries I have, =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D is listed = on its own at the > end of all the words beginning in mi-. That was odd, or an error, I guess= . > > > > LaTeX sorting problems, most likely. > > > >>> > As for =E2=80=9CVictorian=E2=80=9D typographic principles those are= IMO compatible > with Lojban. > >> > >> Would you like to help with the project? Including possibly > =E2=80=9Cregularizing=E2=80=9D the text as suggested above? De-compoundin= g compounds? > Restoring balance in terms of =E2=80=9Cse=E2=80=99u=E2=80=9Ds? > > > > Please, tell us til what time you accept offers to help. > > I=E2=80=99m interested in working with anyone interested in working on th= is with > me. Soon is good. > > > If at this time no one volunteers you may automatically assume that I > (=3Dla gleki) volunteer shifting the task in my ToDo list higher. > > I think it would be fun working with you, and if as you say no one else i= s > interested -- though other voices might be useful or interesting in the > discussion @johncowan ;-) =E2=80=94 it would be great if you could shift = the task > higher. > > > Also please inform us of the deadline when this task of adapting the > text both in punctuation and style has to be done. > > As soon as it is done the book can be typeset and published. I suspect it > might not take all that much time. But one would have to see. > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04447f83f0b75105171262dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-27 16:13 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>:
On 27 May 2015, at 12:25, Gleki Arx= okuna <g= leki.is.my.name@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>> A few years ago I pointed out that punctuating and capitalizing Lo= jban in the usual way did not change the language because it was just decor= ating the text in various ways; if read aloud there should be no difference= . (Same as for writing Lojban in Tengwar.)
>
> yes. If by punctuation you mean English-like punctuation like ".,= !?<>" and not words. Modern parsers will accept this input.

That=E2=80=99s what I mean.

> > However, I'd prefer not nesting {sei}-clauses inside {lu ... = li'u} quotes since otherwise if you do want to quote a {sei}-clause you= are left with uglier ways of doing so.
>
> "On this point,=E2=80=9D said Michael, "I very much agree.= =E2=80=9D
>
> "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael.
>
> I think given the structure a good translation for Lojban should avoid= these kinds of breaks. Easier for performance (reading aloud with characte= r and narrator voices), too.
>
> As you wish. With breaks it'd be
>
> I fi la'e di'u - sei la Maikl pu cusku - mi so'i va'e = tugni.

So=E2=80=A6

I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu cusku,= =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u.

But the problem again here is that for consistency (and automation) one wou= ld expect:

I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu cusku = se'u, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u= .

Wouldn=E2=80=99t one?


As you can se= e from the grammar it is not required there since {sei} clause is expected = to be ended by its selbri, which is {pu cusku} here. So {se'u} is not r= equired. Why so? Because this is how {sei} is defined.

=
If you need technical details then here they are:
free = <- SEI-clause (terms CU-clause?)? selbri SEhU-clause?

I don't know what you mean by consis= tency or automation. With or without {se'u} both sentences mean the sam= e. But why explicitly adding {se'u} if it doesn't change the meanin= g?

=C2=A0

> Without them
> I fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni, - sei la Maikl pu c= usku.

So=E2=80=A6

I lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li&= #39;u sei la Maikl pu cusku [se=E2=80=99u].

Without punctuation between li=E2=80=99u and sei=E2=80=A6 And I still don= =E2=80=99t understand the rationale for not closing the sei/se=E2=80=99u se= t.

To save two syllables. Actually if f= or stylistic spurposes we bane all split quotes then there is not need for = {sei}.
It will be just=C2=A0
I lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e = di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li'u pu se cusku la Maikl= =3D " ... " was said by Michael.
or
I fe= lu =E2=80=9CFi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,=E2=80=9D li&#= 39;u pu cusku fa la Maikl =3D " ... " said Michael.

=C2=A0

> This of course backwards on how English does since you mark "said= Michael" whereas written English marks the rest and the spoken Englis= h probably will use intonation.

Not entirely sure what you mean by =E2=80=9Cmark=E2=80=9D here.
<= /blockquote>
Quotations marks mark the borders of the quote like what i= s done in Lojban by {lu ... li'u}
=C2=A0

> Although, some might prefer splitting {lu ... li'u} into two quote= s tagged with FA. But I agree that split quotes in Lojban or English text m= ight be hard to read for speakers of some languages.
> Without split quotes but with {lu ... li'u} it'd be something = like
> I "lu fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni li'u&qu= ot; pu cusku fa la Maikl.
> "On this point, I very much agree,=E2=80=9D said Michael.

I would think lu/li=E2=80=99u would always be required.

Depends on style but in this case I'd always us= e it, yes.


>>> > Also since probably this project aims at selling books I&= #39;d prefer replacing all compound words (lujvo) not in the dictionary wit= h their expanded forms to make the reading easier for people still not flue= nt in Lojban.
>>
>> One doubts that a Lojban Alice will sell as well as a Latin one. I= can say I have often looked things up and not found them in the dictionary= . Including very short particles.
>
> Which ones?

I don=E2=80=99t recall off-hand. Maybe it was a sorting error as you= mention below.

>> And in one of the dictionaries I have, =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D is lis= ted on its own at the end of all the words beginning in mi-. That was odd, = or an error, I guess.
>
> LaTeX sorting problems, most likely.
>
>>> > As for =E2=80=9CVictorian=E2=80=9D typographic principles= those are IMO compatible with Lojban.
>>
>> Would you like to help with the project? Including possibly =E2=80= =9Cregularizing=E2=80=9D the text as suggested above? De-compounding compou= nds? Restoring balance in terms of =E2=80=9Cse=E2=80=99u=E2=80=9Ds?
>
> Please, tell us til what time you accept offers to help.

I=E2=80=99m interested in working with anyone interested in working = on this with me. Soon is good.

> If at this time no one volunteers you may automatically assume that I = (=3Dla gleki) volunteer shifting the task in my ToDo list higher.

I think it would be fun working with you, and if as you say no one e= lse is interested -- though other voices might be useful or interesting in = the discussion @johncowan ;-) =E2=80=94 it would be great if you could shif= t the task higher.

> Also please inform us of the deadline when this task of adapting the t= ext both in punctuation and style has to be done.

As soon as it is done the book can be typeset and published. I suspe= ct it might not take all that much time. But one would have to see.

Michael Everson * ht= tp://www.evertype.com/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d04447f83f0b75105171262dd--