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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 20:17:03 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+i3nBbZyG=Fti_ehGawSEPqx-X2=sTEEHqaroM29+rRag@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book
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2015-05-27 20:00 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>:

> On 27 May 2015, at 16:42, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Well, a glottal stop is a consonant, and a pause is a pause.
> >
> > And both phonetically realize phoneme /./.
>
> A pause of indeterminate length is a phoneme?
>
> >> I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu c=
usku, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u.
> >>
> >> But the problem again here is that for consistency (and automation) on=
e
> would expect:
> >>
> >> I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl pu c=
usku se'u, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D
> li=E2=80=99u.
> >>
> >> Wouldn=E2=80=99t one?
> >
> > But why would one expect consistency with regard to a grammatical
> feature that is expressly variable?
>
> Because Lojban is hard enough and there are no native speakers?
>
> > A rough analogy from English is the omissibility of _that_ from the
> start of complement clauses (e.g. "He knows (that) she is"): what lunatic
> would 'regularize' an English text by restoring every omitted _that_? And
> would you make overt *every* covert terminator?
>
> It seems to me that a relative pronoun is different from a state process.
> If lu/li=E2=80=99u is regular, why shouldn=E2=80=99t sei/se=E2=80=99u be?
>

sei ... se'u is regular. It just has different rules compared to how bridi
works.

bridi can have after selbri a tail with sumti, in {sei} and {lo} one needs
to use {be} after selbri for that.


> As I say, it=E2=80=99s your language, but this seems quite inconsistent g=
iven the
> logicalness one might expect.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2015-05-27 20:00 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:everson@evertype.com" target=3D"_blank">everson@evertype.com</a=
>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 27 May =
2015, at 16:42, And Rosta &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com">and.ro=
sta@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Well, a glottal stop is a consonant, and a pause is a pause.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And both phonetically realize phoneme /./.<br>
<br>
</span>A pause of indeterminate length is a phoneme?<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt; I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl =
pu cusku, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=E2=80=99u=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; But the problem again here is that for consistency (and automation=
) one would expect:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I lu =E2=80=9CFi la=E2=80=99e di=E2=80=99u,=E2=80=9D sei la Maikl =
pu cusku se&#39;u, =E2=80=9Cmi so=E2=80=99i va=E2=80=99e tugni=E2=80=9D li=
=E2=80=99u.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Wouldn=E2=80=99t one?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But why would one expect consistency with regard to a grammatical feat=
ure that is expressly variable?<br>
<br>
</span>Because Lojban is hard enough and there are no native speakers?<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; A rough analogy from English is the omissibility of _that_ from the st=
art of complement clauses (e.g. &quot;He knows (that) she is&quot;): what l=
unatic would &#39;regularize&#39; an English text by restoring every omitte=
d _that_? And would you make overt *every* covert terminator?<br>
<br>
</span>It seems to me that a relative pronoun is different from a state pro=
cess. If lu/li=E2=80=99u is regular, why shouldn=E2=80=99t sei/se=E2=80=99u=
 be?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>sei ... se&#39;u is regular. It ju=
st has different rules compared to how bridi works.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>bridi can have after selbri a tail with sumti, in {sei} and {lo} one need=
s to use {be} after selbri for that.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<br>
As I say, it=E2=80=99s your language, but this seems quite inconsistent giv=
en the logicalness one might expect.<br>
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
Michael Everson * <a href=3D"http://www.evertype.com/" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.evertype.com/</a><br>
<br>
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">--<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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