Received: from mail-wg0-f62.google.com ([74.125.82.62]:34588) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YyEHX-0004Tt-Ip for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:42 -0700 Received: by wggx12 with SMTP id x12sf20532271wgg.1 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=3G+nnXllqJ6xwLLLM19hrhifmlN7idxXvMjIU5U9e5k=; b=jXrUlNxIzsSpPWjRg1dvV5F+gsKFaJ8cFWekDGGQ1hNDT94C9I6Q0oq7Ig8DwPl+8w so0TjJTReaGypbVPiWBGUnQVVw2rA/oibOyb3cgPLbUrVO5EplVBcIB4DvbH3UeD5QFt BJ4Ln0XpU4X0z4zPH5nHT6Hbb5ZtPSEpMwqSYhi/cZYZlCmJMEr/0Hes6BJxBKl8vD5I 8hGxZsrKSXdL1lvFnUqLLPixrN+sydkkM2AYtf1sNzcXakQV8AXL6oVw2YU27zifV1Xk JSoilKY/ZjLM/s0MbrfeI5Du6CBHaHfYQlxy96Rb4Hex8cCRHx2WsIpyZDlV9xoyy282 ESSQ== X-Received: by 10.180.186.7 with SMTP id fg7mr7237wic.15.1432882832851; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.95.74 with SMTP id di10ls72064wib.17.gmail; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.74.197 with SMTP id w5mr1660145wiv.5.1432882830133; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u10si44763wif.1.2015.05.29.00.00.30 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c; Received: by mail-wi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id mx19so7616899wic.0 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.172.130 with SMTP id bc2mr12635588wjc.85.1432882829996; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Fri, 29 May 2015 00:00:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <471E8D58-43C0-4B8A-97E3-927640DF9D89@evertype.com> References: <1668540.L6pQx4xKKk@caracal> <9248C4CE-DAAE-4BB4-8A28-C6C579472035@evertype.com> <2A580ECF-BBF0-43E3-8C95-2ADF1CF8A532@evertype.com> <5565C857.4020702@gmx.de> <5565E5EC.6030308@gmail.com> <5566038E.6030201@gmail.com> <471E8D58-43C0-4B8A-97E3-927640DF9D89@evertype.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 10:00:09 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013c6342163d0e05173308fe X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e013c6342163d0e05173308fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-29 1:05 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson : > On 27 May 2015, at 18:49, And Rosta wrote: > > >> A pause of indeterminate length is a phoneme? > > > > A pause of indeterminate length is phonetic realization of a phoneme. > > As you wish. I love oddball linguistics. :-) > > > Lojban's design is not at all optimized to make life easy for its > learners or speakers. Its users could adopt conventions that eschew many > elements of its design, in order to make life easier for its users, but > that requires a consensus in usage and entails a de facto repudiation of > those many elements eschewed. > > Logical referents but semilogical structure? Okay. > In what way is it semi-logical? What is logical for you? Lojban is logical mostly in a sense that it is easily parsable. {sei} and bridi tails have different grammar. The selbri itself terminates {sei}-clause, thus the end of {sei}-clause is 100%-predictable. When the selbri is encountered it's the signal that {sei}-clause just ended. > >>> A rough analogy from English is the omissibility of _that_ from the > start of complement clauses (e.g. "He knows (that) she is"): what lunatic > would 'regularize' an English text by restoring every omitted _that_? And > would you make overt *every* covert terminator? > >> > >> It seems to me that a [conjunction] is different from a state process. > > > > I don't understand what a 'state process' is. Like Lojban's terminators= , > clausal ('subordinating conjunction', 'complementizer') _that_ is usually > but not always omissible without affecting sentence meaning. > > Well, there=E2=80=99s a particle to start a paragraph (terminated by the = next > particle of the same kind), and one to start a sentence (terminated by th= e > next particle of the same kind), and one to begin and end a citation (bot= h > particles used), and one to begin and end a metalingusitic interpolation > (but the terminator is optional because you can use non-structural > information to know when it terminates). > > > (With regard to the _that_ that introduces relative clauses, the case > for analysing bare relatives as containing a null _that_ is more > complicated and hence perhaps weaker than the case for analysing bare > complement clauses as containing a null _that_.) > > I don=E2=80=99t see that as analogous, really. > > >> If lu/li=E2=80=99u is regular, why shouldn=E2=80=99t sei/se=E2=80=99u = be? > > > > sei/se'u is regular; it just is regular according to rules less simple > than you would prefer. > > Well, it does make it impossible to apply punctuation automatically, sinc= e > the only way that one could do so is to have a script that would parse a > variable-lengths string following =E2=80=9Csei=E2=80=9D to find the word = of the selbri > class. Not that the application of punctuation is a goal of Lojban. > I see, so you want to put European-like punctuation at the end of {sei}-clauses. This is certainly possible. Are you planning to publish any other books apart from Alice? If yes, then it's a matter of several patches to existing parsers to output such punctuation. Instead of " SEhU-clause?" we'll just have " (SEhU-clause / { ' =E2=80=93 ' } ) ". > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e013c6342163d0e05173308fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-29 1:05 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com= >:
On 27 May 2015, at 18:49,= And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

>> A pause of indeterminate length is a phoneme?
>
> A pause of indeterminate length is phonetic realization of a phoneme.<= br>
As you wish. I love oddball linguistics. :-)

> Lojban's design is not at all optimized to make life easy for its = learners or speakers. Its users could adopt conventions that eschew many el= ements of its design, in order to make life easier for its users, but that = requires a consensus in usage and entails a de facto repudiation of those m= any elements eschewed.

Logical referents but semilogical structure? Okay.
<= div>



>>> A rough analogy from English is the omissibility of _that_ fro= m the start of complement clauses (e.g. "He knows (that) she is")= : what lunatic would 'regularize' an English text by restoring ever= y omitted _that_? And would you make overt *every* covert terminator?
>>
>> It seems to me that a [conjunction] is different from a sta= te process.
>
> I don't understand what a 'state process' is. Like Lojban&= #39;s terminators, clausal ('subordinating conjunction', 'compl= ementizer') _that_ is usually but not always omissible without affectin= g sentence meaning.

Well, there=E2=80=99s a particle to start a paragraph (terminated by= the next particle of the same kind), and one to start a sentence (terminat= ed by the next particle of the same kind), and one to begin and end a citat= ion (both particles used), and one to begin and end a metalingusitic interp= olation (but the terminator is optional because you can use non-structural = information to know when it terminates).

> (With regard to the _that_ that introduces relative clauses, the case = for analysing bare relatives as containing a null _that_ is more complicate= d and hence perhaps weaker than the case for analysing bare complement clau= ses as containing a null _that_.)

I don=E2=80=99t see that as analogous, really.

>> If lu/li=E2=80=99u is regular, why shouldn=E2=80=99t sei/se=E2=80= =99u be?
>
> sei/se'u is regular; it just is regular according to rules less si= mple than you would prefer.

Well, it does make it impossible to apply punctuation automatically,= since the only way that one could do so is to have a script that would par= se a variable-lengths string following =E2=80=9Csei=E2=80=9D to find the wo= rd of the selbri class. Not that the application of punctuation is a goal o= f Lojban.



Michael Everson * ht= tp://www.evertype.com/

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