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Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 12:21:54 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkSm_Sf=L9m1bGUhE50Ei4hYY7BOTGDGYject4DphU199Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  Sorry, gotta disagree with you here.  Ask a four-year-old what a baby
butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, ya know, pretty
much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too)

 http://a-z-animals.com/animals/caterpillar/
http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.html
http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-caterpillar.html

  Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi has two different cifnu forms, I
won't disagree... lo toldi cu  farvi lo  ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo
todvelfarvi

  (btw, interesting article here:
http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory
)

              --gejyspa


On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is this word:
>
> {ciftoldi} = "x1 is a caterpillar (larva of butterfly or moth - not
> sawfly) of species x2."
> However, {cifnu} = "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through
> youth/incomplete development] of species x2."
>
> I think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a
> semantic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more
> helpless than imago.
>
> Compare stages:
> With metamorphosis, e.g. butterflies:
> 1. sperm/ovum
> 2. egg
> 3. laid egg
> 4. larva
> 5. imago
> Cangaroos:
> 1. sperm/ovum
> 2. egg
> 3. newborn (helpless)
> slowly turning into
> 4. adult
> Humans:
> 1. sperm/ovum
> 2. egg
> 3. newborn (helpless)
> slowly turning into
> 4. adult
> Tardigrades:
> 1. sperm/ovum
> 2. laid egg => fertilisation
> 3. newborn (full complement of adult cells)
> slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) into
> 4. adult
>
> So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I
> can't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that
> such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be
> avoided and probably separate brivla should be used instead.
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Sorry, gotta disagree with you here.=C2=A0 Ask a fo=
ur-year-old what a baby butterfly is and they&#39;ll tell ya - &quot;caterp=
illar!&quot; (and, ya know, pretty much any non-entolomogist over the age o=
f four, too)<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://a-z-animals.com/ani=
mals/caterpillar/">http://a-z-animals.com/animals/caterpillar/</a></div><di=
v><a href=3D"http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.=
html">http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.html</a=
><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-cat=
erpillar.html">http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-caterpillar.htm=
l</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Now, if you want to suggest that =
a toldi has two different cifnu forms, I won&#39;t disagree... lo toldi cu =
=C2=A0farvi lo =C2=A0ma&#39;urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo todvelfarvi</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0 (btw, interesting article here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://=
www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-diff=
erent-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory">http://www.npr.org/=
sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animal=
s-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory</a> )</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa</div><div><br></=
div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri,=
 May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The =
only mentioning of the concept of &quot;larva&quot; in JVS is this word:<di=
v><br></div><div><div>{ciftoldi} =3D &quot;x1 is a caterpillar (larva of bu=
tterfly or moth - not sawfly) of species x2.&quot;</div></div><div>However,=
 {cifnu} =3D &quot;x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through youth/incomplete =
development] of species x2.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>I think (althoug=
h it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a semantic shift of th=
e concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more helpless than imago.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Compare stages:</div><div>With metamorphosis, e.g. but=
terflies:<br></div><div>1. sperm/ovum</div><div>2. egg</div><div>3. laid eg=
g</div><div>4. larva</div><div>5. imago</div><div>Cangaroos:</div><div>1. s=
perm/ovum<br></div><div><div>2. egg</div><div>3. newborn (helpless)</div><d=
iv>slowly turning into</div><div>4. adult<br></div></div><div><div>Humans:<=
/div><div>1. sperm/ovum<br></div><div><div>2. egg</div><div>3. newborn (hel=
pless)</div><div>slowly turning into</div><div>4. adult<br></div></div></di=
v><div><div>Tardigrades:</div><div>1. sperm/ovum<br></div><div><div>2. laid=
 egg =3D&gt; fertilisation</div><div>3. newborn (full complement of adult c=
ells)</div><div>slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) in=
to</div><div>4. adult<br></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>So although =
{cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I can&#39;t see suc=
h a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that such anthropo=
morphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be avoided and prob=
ably separate brivla should be used instead.</div></div><span class=3D"HOEn=
Zb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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