Received: from mail-la0-f62.google.com ([209.85.215.62]:32900) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YyOpG-0006tJ-4T for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:14 -0700 Received: by lamq1 with SMTP id q1sf25702713lam.0 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=5/iQjnyg1jgevUSWyqn65fe3/iwYJiK5/AVK5/9XVtQ=; b=ohZpb6v/7lTWwn7JpTUYT2ASwoR5sgz5c4Cyy6g6dtNok/Vpqe49x4flL01o4u/Vjq Rjj+oevnOOEZSN6zz2jaWnxckSx4P/wa2GMk9qcKSXDt5ye5ALRH6yI47PpH3BsFm/ob lyaaA8A2haKpC1FcZz0bDuDPZXnXqmZu3pZeizjsIzqoFCXmEu54VvESNOIF8nk+LvUb fHpqhh35oQdTzxT0+MFQkqrvb2xZjBE9D1Dv1PcKoyM+frfSWfXbg2QxiuRhQp9u4lxA WEqbvK63CXHtcvYvMJ5HfFOj/+z1SsuFfPH08ymq/wdjwd52QK28E9vcjaUAf7DFpwAd Q8uA== X-Received: by 10.180.83.170 with SMTP id r10mr35609wiy.9.1432923363163; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.102.65 with SMTP id fm1ls213666wib.32.canary; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.142.205 with SMTP id ry13mr8244988wjb.2.1432923362328; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k10si149296wia.1.2015.05.29.11.16.02 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::229; Received: by mail-wi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id o1so33494531wiz.1 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.205.225 with SMTP id lj1mr17571308wjc.138.1432923362172; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:15:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 21:15:41 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b9e4fe258905173c77bb X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bd6b9e4fe258905173c77bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-05-29 19:21 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > Sorry, gotta disagree with you here. Ask a four-year-old what a baby > butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, ya know, pretty > much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too) > okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. > http://a-z-animals.com/animals/caterpillar/ > http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.html > http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-caterpillar.html > In what way are they helpless? They eat themselves whereas in cangaroos they can only get to the dug. > > Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi has two different cifnu forms, > I won't disagree... lo toldi cu farvi lo ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo > todvelfarvi > > (btw, interesting article here: > http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory > ) > > --gejyspa > > > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki > wrote: > >> The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is this word: >> >> {ciftoldi} = "x1 is a caterpillar (larva of butterfly or moth - not >> sawfly) of species x2." >> However, {cifnu} = "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through >> youth/incomplete development] of species x2." >> >> I think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a >> semantic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more >> helpless than imago. >> >> Compare stages: >> With metamorphosis, e.g. butterflies: >> 1. sperm/ovum >> 2. egg >> 3. laid egg >> 4. larva >> 5. imago >> Cangaroos: >> 1. sperm/ovum >> 2. egg >> 3. newborn (helpless) >> slowly turning into >> 4. adult >> Humans: >> 1. sperm/ovum >> 2. egg >> 3. newborn (helpless) >> slowly turning into >> 4. adult >> Tardigrades: >> 1. sperm/ovum >> 2. laid egg => fertilisation >> 3. newborn (full complement of adult cells) >> slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) into >> 4. adult >> >> So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I >> can't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that >> such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be >> avoided and probably separate brivla should be used instead. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bd6b9e4fe258905173c77bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-29 19:21 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c= om>:
=C2= =A0 Sorry, gotta disagree with you here.=C2=A0 Ask a four-year-old what a b= aby butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, y= a know, pretty much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too)

okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "= baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby.


In what way a= re they helpless?=C2=A0 They eat themselves whereas in cangaroos they can o= nly get to the dug.



=C2=A0 Now, if you want to = suggest that a toldi has two different cifnu forms, I won't disagree...= lo toldi cu =C2=A0farvi lo =C2=A0ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo todvelfarvi=




On Fri, May = 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= wrote:
The only = mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is this word:
{ciftoldi} =3D "x1 is a caterpillar (larva of butterf= ly or moth - not sawfly) of species x2."
However, {cif= nu} =3D "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through youth/incomplete devel= opment] of species x2."

I think (although it = is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a semantic shift of the con= cept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more helpless than imago.

Compare stages:
With metamorphosis, e.g. butterfl= ies:
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
3. laid egg
4. larva
5. imago
Cangaroos:
1. sperm/= ovum
2. egg
3. newborn (helpless)
sl= owly turning into
4. adult
Humans:
=
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
3. newborn (helpless= )
slowly turning into
4. adult
Tardigrades:
1. sperm/ovum
2. laid egg = =3D> fertilisation
3. newborn (full complement of adult cells)=
slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) into
4. adult

So although {cifn= u} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I can't see such a s= tage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that such anthropomorph= ism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be avoided and probably = separate brivla should be used instead.

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