Received: from mail-la0-f55.google.com ([209.85.215.55]:33359) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YyOzX-0007IR-Ou for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:55 -0700 Received: by lamq1 with SMTP id q1sf25777108lam.0 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=NrHmupeWylTVT29p0MD+iWzG+62x2Ch/0PzWOoaHRMg=; b=k+RKZFNApaHuxb8D2cUHvMogVns7hoEOPymm6xZ49t/0epUxOAQdbrZjyMT2+ROUoQ cg0WwE3fWtLA3cEvySqzusMFQlA4pltQeaIUPoKlJsINMlwi08F/3DX2jYKkY/69CXow hJbm74r4TgAnKHJnzW71XTtvrvFn32e91VBD1rC675o0TToELbOiNxQMWpQ0zz/tHtha 4aCgrP0LAeHnEfcCt+m+QuwRjo2eVewvUNHHqD8ylYNsPU+TyfMqczpwF+ln3ZFvi1EA 4VIlyzWwpCF4wPObxvGD/ozEAtt//fvKn3kCmB6Pgj5HZrTuYwBICIgZlaqSxt4xNBwT NLkw== X-Received: by 10.152.23.167 with SMTP id n7mr131293laf.36.1432924000871; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.88.110 with SMTP id bf14ls363197lab.48.gmail; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.219.200 with SMTP id pq8mr8417814lbc.7.1432924000277; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bc3si133934wib.2.2015.05.29.11.26.40 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::230; Received: by mail-wg0-x230.google.com with SMTP id gq6so69655126wgb.3 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.176 with SMTP id m16mr9261195wiv.68.1432924000077; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.226.195 with HTTP; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:26:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c7e5803ce0005173c9e19 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043c7e5803ce0005173c9e19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg can fend for themselves. Are you saying the are not babies? The definition of baby in English is: : a very young child : a very young animal (source m-w.com) All these case qualify. I don't believe cifnu is that much different. Words in brackets in the gismu list are rarely probative, and they explanatory or expanding, rather than limiting, the definition. (Or are you suggesting that "flira" means the same as "stedu" because it says "head" in brackets? --gejyspa On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-05-29 19:21 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > >> Sorry, gotta disagree with you here. Ask a four-year-old what a baby >> butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, ya know, pretty >> much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too) >> > > okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. > > >> http://a-z-animals.com/animals/caterpillar/ >> http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.html >> http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-caterpillar.html >> > > In what way are they helpless? They eat themselves whereas in cangaroos > they can only get to the dug. > > >> >> Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi has two different cifnu forms, >> I won't disagree... lo toldi cu farvi lo ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo >> todvelfarvi >> >> (btw, interesting article here: >> http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory >> ) >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki >> wrote: >> >>> The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is this word: >>> >>> {ciftoldi} = "x1 is a caterpillar (larva of butterfly or moth - not >>> sawfly) of species x2." >>> However, {cifnu} = "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through >>> youth/incomplete development] of species x2." >>> >>> I think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a >>> semantic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more >>> helpless than imago. >>> >>> Compare stages: >>> With metamorphosis, e.g. butterflies: >>> 1. sperm/ovum >>> 2. egg >>> 3. laid egg >>> 4. larva >>> 5. imago >>> Cangaroos: >>> 1. sperm/ovum >>> 2. egg >>> 3. newborn (helpless) >>> slowly turning into >>> 4. adult >>> Humans: >>> 1. sperm/ovum >>> 2. egg >>> 3. newborn (helpless) >>> slowly turning into >>> 4. adult >>> Tardigrades: >>> 1. sperm/ovum >>> 2. laid egg => fertilisation >>> 3. newborn (full complement of adult cells) >>> slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) into >>> 4. adult >>> >>> So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I >>> can't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that >>> such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be >>> avoided and probably separate brivla should be used instead. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043c7e5803ce0005173c9e19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the= egg can fend for themselves.=C2=A0 Are you saying the are not babies?=C2= =A0 The definition of baby in English is:

: a very young child
: a very young animal

=C2=A0 (source m-= w.com)=C2=A0

=C2=A0 All these case qualify.=C2=A0 I don't be= lieve cifnu is that much different. Words in brackets in the gismu list are= rarely probative, and they explanatory or expanding, rather than limiting,= the definition. (Or are you suggesting that "flira" means the sa= me as "stedu" because it says "head" in brackets?=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Fri, M= ay 29, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co= m> wrote:
=

2015-05-29 19:21 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <<= a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail= .com>:
=C2= =A0 Sorry, gotta disagree with you here.=C2=A0 Ask a four-year-old what a b= aby butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, y= a know, pretty much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too)

okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean= "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby.


=
In what way are they helpless?=C2=A0 They eat themselves = whereas in cangaroos they can only get to the dug.


=C2=A0 Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi = has two different cifnu forms, I won't disagree... lo toldi cu =C2=A0fa= rvi lo =C2=A0ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo todvelfarvi

=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki <= ;gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com> wrote:
The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in J= VS is this word:

{ciftoldi} =3D "x1 is a cater= pillar (larva of butterfly or moth - not sawfly) of species x2."
=
However, {cifnu} =3D "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless throug= h youth/incomplete development] of species x2."

I think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a s= emantic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more helple= ss than imago.

Compare stages:
With meta= morphosis, e.g. butterflies:
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
3. laid egg
4. larva
5. imago
Cangar= oos:
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
3. newborn= (helpless)
slowly turning into
4. adult
Humans:
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
<= div>3. newborn (helpless)
slowly turning into
4. adult<= br>
Tardigrades:
1. sperm/ovum
2. laid egg =3D> fertilisation
3. newborn (full co= mplement of adult cells)
slowly growing (via the size of cells, n= ot their number) into
4. adult

So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos = I can't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think= that such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should = be avoided and probably separate brivla should be used instead.
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d043c7e5803ce0005173c9e19--