Received: from mail-wi0-f186.google.com ([209.85.212.186]:33586) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YyP5H-0007RI-Bq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:46 -0700 Received: by wibbw19 with SMTP id bw19sf5721847wib.0 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=sH8RB+Xy3mfOE8JxZ/enYIApmV5SYO464uQEzY6sGLw=; b=qHA4Mkg6y0ueA0DS9PTmDMJ4xvKa5zjNvlKKPoWBcpbd+THGBztTveJ1VlCJVPOM+w 2B75UD5vtHweLquVtcy79uJTMe3MGQRqkNsQJarhseQHRbSchyKY8D8NFy2P1Lg6j5TO 8eSp4D+wZXmdAGcWe3boEUEN3rh17Upaxu0esJqoIpX7FNfaqircrnb/e71NnLTb6UJu SxHlcxp6ScQOgE7OWm4NXmdERxIur8OyXhBi3LXV8Bl62+1huP6STKWxYKLgEiPyUGcs PG+QjVxD7H5+c42FSyJQpt4Y/zxADMr6mMx4dIVuE9aJWj7GIjNCnUP+pk9joQNjEdHK +2Rw== X-Received: by 10.152.21.70 with SMTP id t6mr132868lae.42.1432924356719; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.179.39 with SMTP id dd7ls395754lac.60.gmail; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.148.101 with SMTP id tr5mr8506175lbb.13.1432924356055; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si159597wiz.0.2015.05.29.11.32.36 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c; Received: by wicmx19 with SMTP id mx19so23217792wic.0 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.205.225 with SMTP id lj1mr17688836wjc.138.1432924355857; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Fri, 29 May 2015 11:32:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 21:32:15 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b9e43894c905173cb37b X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bd6b9e43894c905173cb37b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-05-29 21:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : > And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg can fend for > themselves. Are you saying the are not babies? > I'm saying they are not {cifnu}. > The definition of baby in English > We are talking about Lojban, not English > is: > > : a very young child > > : a very young animal > sounds like {verba} > > (source m-w.com) > > All these case qualify. I don't believe cifnu is that much different. > Please, read the definition once again. > Words in brackets in the gismu list are rarely probative, and they > explanatory or expanding, rather than limiting, the definition. > Then {verba}/{cifnu} distinction becomes moot. > (Or are you suggesting that "flira" means the same as "stedu" because it > says "head" in brackets? > Those brackets clarify which meaning of "face" is meant. > > --gejyspa > > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-05-29 19:21 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky : >> >>> Sorry, gotta disagree with you here. Ask a four-year-old what a baby >>> butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, ya know, pretty >>> much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too) >>> >> >> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. >> >> >>> http://a-z-animals.com/animals/caterpillar/ >>> http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.html >>> http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-caterpillar.html >>> >> >> In what way are they helpless? They eat themselves whereas in cangaroos >> they can only get to the dug. >> >> >>> >>> Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi has two different cifnu >>> forms, I won't disagree... lo toldi cu farvi lo ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo >>> todvelfarvi >>> >>> (btw, interesting article here: >>> http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory >>> ) >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is this word: >>>> >>>> {ciftoldi} = "x1 is a caterpillar (larva of butterfly or moth - not >>>> sawfly) of species x2." >>>> However, {cifnu} = "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through >>>> youth/incomplete development] of species x2." >>>> >>>> I think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a >>>> semantic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more >>>> helpless than imago. >>>> >>>> Compare stages: >>>> With metamorphosis, e.g. butterflies: >>>> 1. sperm/ovum >>>> 2. egg >>>> 3. laid egg >>>> 4. larva >>>> 5. imago >>>> Cangaroos: >>>> 1. sperm/ovum >>>> 2. egg >>>> 3. newborn (helpless) >>>> slowly turning into >>>> 4. adult >>>> Humans: >>>> 1. sperm/ovum >>>> 2. egg >>>> 3. newborn (helpless) >>>> slowly turning into >>>> 4. adult >>>> Tardigrades: >>>> 1. sperm/ovum >>>> 2. laid egg => fertilisation >>>> 3. newborn (full complement of adult cells) >>>> slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) into >>>> 4. adult >>>> >>>> So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I >>>> can't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that >>>> such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be >>>> avoided and probably separate brivla should be used instead. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bd6b9e43894c905173cb37b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-29 21:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c= om>:
=C2= =A0 And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg can fend for th= emselves.=C2=A0 Are you saying the are not babies?
<= br>
I'm saying they are not {cifnu}.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 The definition of baby= in English

We are talking about Lojb= an, not English
=C2=A0
is:

: a very young child

: a very young animal

sounds like {verba}=C2=A0

=C2=A0 (source m-w.com)=C2=A0

=C2=A0 All these= case qualify.=C2=A0 I don't believe cifnu is that much different.

Please, read the definition once again.
=C2=A0
Words= in brackets in the gismu list are rarely probative, and they explanatory o= r expanding, rather than limiting, the definition.
<= br>
Then {verba}/{cifnu} distinction becomes moot.
=C2= =A0
(Or are you sugge= sting that "flira" means the same as "stedu" because it= says "head" in brackets?=C2=A0

Those brackets clarify which meaning of "face" is meant.=
=C2=A0

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa
=

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-29 19:21 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Sorry, gotta disagree with you here.=C2=A0 Ask a fou= r-year-old what a baby butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpi= llar!" (and, ya know, pretty much any non-entolomogist over the age of= four, too)

okay, but {lo cifn= u} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" bab= y.

<= div>
In what way are they helpless?=C2=A0 They eat the= mselves whereas in cangaroos they can only get to the dug.
<= div>


=C2=A0 Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi has t= wo different cifnu forms, I won't disagree... lo toldi cu =C2=A0farvi l= o =C2=A0ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo todvelfarvi


<= div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.nam= e@gmail.com> wrote:
The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is= this word:

{ciftoldi} =3D "x1 is a caterpilla= r (larva of butterfly or moth - not sawfly) of species x2."
However, {cifnu} =3D "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through you= th/incomplete development] of species x2."

I = think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a semant= ic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more helpless th= an imago.

Compare stages:
With metamorph= osis, e.g. butterflies:
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
<= div>3. laid egg
4. larva
5. imago
Cangaroos:<= /div>
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
3. newborn (hel= pless)
slowly turning into
4. adult
Humans:
1. sperm/ovum
2. egg
3= . newborn (helpless)
slowly turning into
4. adult
Tardigrades:
1. sperm/ovum
2. laid egg =3D> fertilisation
3. newborn (full complem= ent of adult cells)
slowly growing (via the size of cells, not th= eir number) into
4. adult

So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I can= 't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that= such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be av= oided and probably separate brivla should be used instead.

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--047d7bd6b9e43894c905173cb37b--