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Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:51:51 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkS-OVaHLMLMHyb88A1rcz_PVB2D9YuQV8fZNxgKb64PXw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> 2015-05-29 21:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
>
>>   And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg can fend for
>> themselves.  Are you saying the are not babies?
>>
>
> I'm saying they are not {cifnu}.
>
>
>>   The definition of baby in English
>>
>
> We are talking about Lojban, not English
>
>
>> is:
>>
>> : a very young child
>>
>> : a very young animal
>>
>
> sounds like {verba}
>
>>
>>   (source m-w.com)
>>
>>   All these case qualify.  I don't believe cifnu is that much different.
>>
>
> Please, read the definition once again.
>
>
>> Words in brackets in the gismu list are rarely probative, and they
>> explanatory or expanding, rather than limiting, the definition.
>>
>
> Then {verba}/{cifnu} distinction becomes moot.
>


  No, it does not.  (putting aside for the moment the very salient fact
that se verba/te verba and se cifnu parts are completely different, so just
like terdi/plini and lunra/mluni are not synonyms, despite the fact that
their x1s are pretty coterminus).  "an infant/baby" is different (or at the
very least, a subset of) a "child/kid/juvenile".  ( Also, if you notice,
verba specifies a "person" in those brackets that you love so much.  Are
you suggesting a caterpillar is a person?  But I will be willing to extend
it to other species (even though the only one in the series that allows to
specify the species in the terbri is cifnu))  AFAIK, that distinction is
made in almost every language.  But it is true, that in regards to many
non-human species, you could use either the one or the other
interchangeably, if you are only interested in x1 aspect.  (so, yes, I
could use vertoldi rather than ciftoldi for "caterpillar", but it doesn't
make the latter incorrect, as you have argued.)  Even in humans, can you
tell me what day a given cifnu becomes a verba? What's your criteria.  I
don't know of any.  What's the standard for helplessness?  When it can eat
solid food? When it can walk?  When it can drive to the grocery store and
pay with money from its own job?  Everything is a continuum.

           --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.m=
y.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><span class=3D"">2015-05-29 21:26 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mtu=
rniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg c=
an fend for themselves.=C2=A0 Are you saying the are not babies?</div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div></span><div>I&#39;m saying they are not {cifnu}.</di=
v><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The definition of baby in English</div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div></span><div>We are talking about Lojban, not English</div><span cla=
ss=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"> i=
s:<br><br>: a very young child<br><br>: a very young animal<br></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div></span><div>sounds like {verba}=C2=A0</div><span clas=
s=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=C2=A0 (source <=
a href=3D"http://m-w.com" target=3D"_blank">m-w.com</a>)=C2=A0<br><br>=C2=
=A0 All these case qualify.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t believe cifnu is that much di=
fferent.</div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Please, read the defi=
nition once again.</div><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"> Words in brackets in the gismu list are rar=
ely probative, and they explanatory or expanding, rather than limiting, the=
 definition.</div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Then {verba}/{cif=
nu} distinction becomes moot.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 No, it does not. =C2=A0(putting aside f=
or the moment the very salient fact that se verba/te verba and se cifnu par=
ts are completely different, so just like terdi/plini and lunra/mluni are n=
ot synonyms, despite the fact that their x1s are pretty coterminus). =C2=A0=
&quot;an infant/baby&quot; is different (or at the very least, a subset of)=
 a &quot;child/kid/juvenile&quot;. =C2=A0( Also, if you notice, verba speci=
fies a &quot;person&quot; in those brackets that you love so much.=C2=A0 Ar=
e you suggesting a caterpillar is a person?=C2=A0 But I will be willing to =
extend it to other species (even though the only one in the series that all=
ows to specify the species in the terbri is cifnu)) =C2=A0AFAIK, that disti=
nction is made in almost every language.=C2=A0 But it is true, that in rega=
rds to many non-human species, you could use either the one or the other in=
terchangeably, if you are only interested in x1 aspect. =C2=A0(so, yes, I c=
ould use vertoldi rather than ciftoldi for &quot;caterpillar&quot;, but it =
doesn&#39;t make the latter incorrect, as you have argued.) =C2=A0Even in h=
umans, can you tell me what day a given cifnu becomes a verba? What&#39;s y=
our criteria.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know of any.=C2=A0 What&#39;s the standard =
for helplessness?=C2=A0 When it can eat solid food? When it can walk?=C2=A0=
 When it can drive to the grocery store and pay with money from its own job=
?=C2=A0 Everything is a continuum.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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