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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 08:17:44 +0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu
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2015-05-30 1:11 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:

> On Friday, May 29, 2015 14:26:40 Michael Turniansky wrote:
> >   And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg can fend for
> > themselves.  Are you saying the are not babies?
>
> What you have here is the altricial-precocial distinction. This is
> independent
> of whether the baby is a larva. Caterpillars are precocial; schadons are
> altricial. Gnus are precocial; humans are altricial.
>

Yes, I will reply to Piier's message then.

When children say that butterflies have babies there can be only two
explanations:
1. Parents told them that in English using the word "baby".
2. Parents told them in Lojban or the children themselves watched the
metamorphosis but used parents' explanations in Lojban and then use the
term {cifnu}.

Back to Lojban
verba/makcu is a fuzzy set.
cifnu/tolcifnu (helplessness) is a fuzzy set too.
As for stages of development they are not connected to those concepts, they
are orthogonal.

Take salamanders.
They have metamorphosis too. However, if there is the lack of iodine they
dont transform and show neoteny. Thus at "larva" stage they become sexually
mature. When given iodine they transform into the next stage.

Where is {cifnu} and where is {makcu} here?
It's just that English confuses .uenaisai those concepts.

If Lojban were created by salamanders {larva} would be a gismu.


> Pierre
> --
> Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2015-05-30 1:11 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org" target=3D"_blank">phma@bezitopo.org</a>&gt;</spa=
n>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:=
solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Friday, May 29, 2015 14:26:40 M=
ichael Turniansky wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0And yet turtles and snakes and fish just out of the egg ca=
n fend for<br>
&gt; themselves.=C2=A0 Are you saying the are not babies?<br>
<br>
</span>What you have here is the altricial-precocial distinction. This is i=
ndependent<br>
of whether the baby is a larva. Caterpillars are precocial; schadons are<br=
>
altricial. Gnus are precocial; humans are altricial.<br></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>Yes, I will reply to Piier&#39;s message then.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>When children say that butterflies have babies there can be only=
 two explanations:<br></div><div>1. Parents told them that in English using=
 the word &quot;baby&quot;.</div><div>2. Parents told them in Lojban or the=
 children themselves watched the metamorphosis but used parents&#39; explan=
ations in Lojban and then use the term {cifnu}.</div><div><br></div><div>Ba=
ck to Lojban</div><div><div>verba/makcu is a fuzzy set.</div><div>cifnu/tol=
cifnu (helplessness) is a fuzzy set too.</div><div>As for stages of develop=
ment they are not connected to those concepts, they are orthogonal.</div></=
div><div><br></div><div>Take salamanders.</div><div>They have metamorphosis=
 too. However, if there is the lack of iodine they dont transform and show =
neoteny. Thus at &quot;larva&quot; stage they become sexually mature. When =
given iodine they transform into the next stage.</div><div><br></div><div>W=
here is {cifnu} and where is {makcu} here?</div><div>It&#39;s just that Eng=
lish confuses .uenaisai those concepts.</div><div><br></div><div>If Lojban =
were created by salamanders {larva} would be a gismu.</div><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Pierre<br>
--<br>
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.<br>
</font></span><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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