Received: from mail-wg0-f63.google.com ([74.125.82.63]:34723) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YywL8-0005wW-Q5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:23 -0700 Received: by wggx12 with SMTP id x12sf31981744wgg.1 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Afs5jPXkXST1lrt/01Z2D9t84LBmpQyIY5xRpLEvInQ=; b=E7Usv+cTnMvdbTC4v6PNavG/O4H049pZ+WlE3GHDDqqKS9wwNkkom8RqCNuvQe3J6n DO3t5xC3eqZ8TzHdhiOAj85MBj8dZd/JvvzfBk2UvWaN90/OQ/WUJYGHAopETrTbpJMs VYfm7IP0rgpKR7rzBdtOgVjXB6apqSvXGfEgc/dlIW51HgQeOaMNSKJiHC03vzfE61JC Cb6BOwo5HXvk3wMYUQsuuzARKwxRT29CHYbsOn76oJPc6qtzxqUpBeWL+t+ToZnzyIv+ qIpRwLPAlWsL2j4ratcRsIqv2/p8c3HoGrxTlSkIrMEz8pXuCwfqLVUZwBFFSMnY1fhD 11Ig== X-Received: by 10.180.97.7 with SMTP id dw7mr27511wib.1.1433052191933; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.126.3 with SMTP id mu3ls438369wib.45.canary; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.85.137 with SMTP id h9mr5661387wiz.7.1433052191455; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si332535wiz.0.2015.05.30.23.03.11 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::229; Received: by mail-wi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id ut5so12706319wib.1 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.109.229 with SMTP id hv5mr30429364wjb.119.1433052191351; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:03:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:02:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 09:02:50 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b60441acf67ea05175a7625 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Spam_score: -3.0 X-Spam_score_int: -29 X-Spam_bar: --- --047d7b60441acf67ea05175a7625 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < lojbab@lojban.org>: > On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. >> > > No. It means baby. The "helpless" was my biologically-naive perception > that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a "child" is relative > helplessness. infant = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between six months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or attention* > I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and > becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someone > change their diapers. (And I wouldn't be surprised if different languages > divide up human development differently than English does) > "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant. Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of development like larva/imago. They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate them when needed. One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 here?). Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable. > That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for > non-humans. But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the human > tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit. And tanru are > most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases). > > Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be > limited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth. This already happened although of course one can assert that no one knows it sufficiently. > And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no doubt > the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological concepts, > so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me. > > le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the > biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael. If the > word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording. A brivla meaning "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is needed. The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so I often > used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition. > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b60441acf67ea05175a7625 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG= <lojbab@lojban.org>:
O= n 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "= helpless" baby.

 No.=C2=A0 It means baby.=C2=A0 The "helpless" was my biologically= -naive perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" a= nd a "child" is relative helplessness.

infant =C2=A0=3D A very young human being, from birth to somewhere be= tween six months and two years of age, needing almost constant care and/= or attention
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 I can't = tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and becom= es a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someo= ne change their diapers.=C2=A0 (And I wouldn't be surprised if differen= t languages divide up human development differently than English does)
<= /blockquote>

"infant" in humans is really help= less. Obviously, like for many concepts there isn't strict border when = a human being stops being an infant.

Anyway, the q= uestion was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate to mix the th= ree concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of development like larv= a/imago.

They mean different things and it will be= helpful to clearly separate them when needed.

One= more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid pregnant= too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are born both = as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 here?= ).

Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, h= umans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe = life cycles of all of them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidab= le.



That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for n= on-humans.=C2=A0 But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the h= uman tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit.=C2=A0 An= d tanru are most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases).<= br>
Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be li= mited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth.
=
This already happened although of course one can assert that= no one knows it sufficiently.
=C2=A0
=C2= =A0 And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no doub= t the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological concept= s, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me.

le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the bi= ological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.=C2=A0 If the= word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.

A brivla meaning =C2=A0"x1 is a live being= helpless by standard x2" is needed.

=C2=A0 The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so = I often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition= .

lojbab


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