Received: from mail-pd0-f185.google.com ([209.85.192.185]:34305) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YywcX-0006DI-Gl for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:21 -0700 Received: by pdjp10 with SMTP id p10sf23400295pdj.1 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=DHY+abMIVwdJql668zHg8B9x34qat7qiZeKpy+0F5NM=; b=M5QgZXi+mDEZK056P4HCPq5kHn35Hpnmi1IKoQjx58XMXFSz3blh2WI1c4AeqWFQ+x d9NmdQBTO3iv6I8AD/Wl990AbkBrduest0JMRVM4igSqXppZrbTweWtNcd04KB1GxLP5 IZAsizsf2ZGk8VXq8dy9SKDb22bzqOWTd/phHimSU3nmNp7YBDx1MxvVvwdysQx9BF6l 3S4ERA8GEMuOA91cOy/b0ic5oSLqD+NF5lQokXq3dk+nnpzFWN0bSyNvZv20tBl6Jihh jRzDlFC/oQfnd4U5F5yCN41kw6GmvLR/7JHIGADjr5KEMC3KAjf4QJutGS2ulxsVnxDj mKUA== X-Received: by 10.140.93.38 with SMTP id c35mr205144qge.38.1433053271409; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.30.119 with SMTP id c110ls2030914qgc.91.gmail; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.34.136 with SMTP id s8mr20923376yha.36.1433053271167; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id lg9si1356493qcb.1.2015.05.30.23.21.11 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236; Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id g32so68165597qkh.0 for ; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.235.147 with SMTP id g141mr18215750qhc.35.1433053271054; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.228.69 with HTTP; Sat, 30 May 2015 23:21:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 00:21:10 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11376e6e2a60eb05175ab785 X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Spam_score: -3.0 X-Spam_score_int: -29 X-Spam_bar: --- --001a11376e6e2a60eb05175ab785 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi Because Zipf: tcudjure'i On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < > lojbab@lojban.org>: > >> On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >> >>> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. >>> >> >> No. It means baby. The "helpless" was my biologically-naive perception >> that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a "child" is relative >> helplessness. > > > infant = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between six > months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or > attention* > > >> I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and >> becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someone >> change their diapers. (And I wouldn't be surprised if different languages >> divide up human development differently than English does) >> > > "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts > there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant. > > Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate to > mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of development > like larva/imago. > > They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate them > when needed. > > One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid > pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are > born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 > here?). > > Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and > tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of > them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable. > > > >> That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for >> non-humans. But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the human >> tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit. And tanru are >> most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases). >> >> Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be >> limited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth. > > > This already happened although of course one can assert that no one knows > it sufficiently. > > >> And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no >> doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological >> concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me. >> >> le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the >> biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael. If the >> word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording. > > > A brivla meaning "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is needed. > > The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so I often >> used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition. >> >> lojbab >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11376e6e2a60eb05175ab785 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi

Because Zipf: = tcudjure'i

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna &= lt;gleki.is= .my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
=


2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President = and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org>:
= On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "= helpless" baby.

 No.=C2=A0 It means baby.=C2=A0 The "helpless" was my biologically= -naive perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" a= nd a "child" is relative helplessness.

infant =C2=A0=3D A very young human being, from birth to somew= here between six months and two years of age, needing almost constant ca= re and/or attention
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" cease= s to be a baby and becomes a "child" other than that helplessness= of having to have someone change their diapers.=C2=A0 (And I wouldn't = be surprised if different languages divide up human development differently= than English does)

"infant= " in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts ther= e isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant.

Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it= 9;s inappropriate to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and= stage of development like larva/imago.

They mean = different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate them when neede= d.

One more example are Aphids that are born pregn= ant with another Aphid pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each o= ther). Thus they are born both as "babies" but as mature ones (al= ways fill makcu2 / verba3 here?).

Now combine butt= erflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are = supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of them then new precise = words (not tanru) are unavoidable.



That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for n= on-humans.=C2=A0 But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the h= uman tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit.=C2=A0 An= d tanru are most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases).<= br>
Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be li= mited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth.
=
This already happened although of course one can asse= rt that no one knows it sufficiently.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 And by the time we have some non-human species sp= eaking Lojban, no doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of = our biological concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't co= nvince me.

le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the bi= ological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.=C2=A0 If the= word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.

A brivla meaning =C2=A0"x1 is a liv= e being helpless by standard x2" is needed.

=C2=A0 The gismu places structures were limited= by character count, so I often used a single word that wasn't necessar= ily a precise definition.

lojbab


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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmi= ma lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Do= t Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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