Received: from mail-wg0-f56.google.com ([74.125.82.56]:33843) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YyxNm-0006hQ-Sy for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:10:11 -0700 Received: by wggx12 with SMTP id x12sf32071540wgg.1 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:10:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=oSW+t3pW/SnOiJbUp7murJvr6im1cdv+Y8pnK4B2jvM=; b=cumQlEl1LgkboFyGEvE7s+x/3s4QQM1RQEUcCKne4IKOt4nmYHn5BiO+CDqwyPgQ5v WUzn816HyaEb+MvsF8IVSxVsYTnDEtbYREe6Gj8E5KW2xyP7s4dWHYt8N0/gZjur7N4U 5x93jHJthBTzVpKlgLn4bdqaONxef6zAgQP5kkJ8JxTdi6l9Lo/ki1xDfrN2GjwtL/r2 KA536efbLQDH7iUCT1SNIyj9P0AxEx0OQ7+GZYn/dxD20kNSpZIQIaHE7/xfeGQyoF+d UxWgxhyjGYU4v1uwcdULavQ6nmPwxIpTI6efa2twp2G23ncc5ZVuJ5+deNUlAkY+ay0c rbVw== X-Received: by 10.180.89.240 with SMTP id br16mr27647wib.14.1433056200007; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:10:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.91.231 with SMTP id ch7ls438026wib.47.gmail; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.47.179 with SMTP id e19mr15101166wjn.4.1433056199552; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x236.google.com (mail-wg0-x236.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bc3si322399wib.2.2015.05.31.00.09.59 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::236; Received: by wgbgq6 with SMTP id gq6so91285033wgb.3 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.90.228 with SMTP id bz4mr10176295wib.69.1433056199400; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 00:09:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 10:09:38 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043be0a6b5673605175b6515 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043be0a6b5673605175b6515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi > > Because Zipf: tcudjure'i > uanai i srana ma > > On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < >> lojbab@lojban.org>: >> >>> On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. >>>> >>> >>> No. It means baby. The "helpless" was my biologically-naive perception >>> that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a "child" is relative >>> helplessness. >> >> >> infant = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between six >> months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or >> attention* >> >> >>> I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and >>> becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someone >>> change their diapers. (And I wouldn't be surprised if different languages >>> divide up human development differently than English does) >>> >> >> "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts >> there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant. >> >> Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate to >> mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of development >> like larva/imago. >> >> They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate >> them when needed. >> >> One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid >> pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are >> born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 >> here?). >> >> Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and >> tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of >> them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable. >> >> >> >>> That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for >>> non-humans. But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the human >>> tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit. And tanru are >>> most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases). >>> >>> Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be >>> limited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth. >> >> >> This already happened although of course one can assert that no one knows >> it sufficiently. >> >> >>> And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no >>> doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological >>> concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me. >>> >>> le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the >>> biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael. If the >>> word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording. >> >> >> A brivla meaning "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is needed. >> >> The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so I often >>> used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition. >>> >>> lojbab >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043be0a6b5673605175b6515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
nitcu tese s= idju nunrenvi

Because Zipf: tcudjure'i

uanai i srana ma
=C2=A0

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:0= 2 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> w= rote:


2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:0= 0 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org><= /span>:
On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrot= e:
okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "= helpless" baby.

 No.=C2=A0 It means baby.=C2=A0 The "helpless" was my biologically= -naive perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" a= nd a "child" is relative helplessness.

infant =C2=A0=3D A very young human being, from birth to somew= here between six months and two years of age, needing almost constant ca= re and/or attention
=C2=A0
=C2=A0= I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a b= aby and becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having = to have someone change their diapers.=C2=A0 (And I wouldn't be surprise= d if different languages divide up human development differently than Engli= sh does)

"infant" in h= umans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts there isn't= strict border when a human being stops being an infant.

Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappro= priate to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of d= evelopment like larva/imago.

They mean different t= hings and it will be helpful to clearly separate them when needed.

One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with an= other Aphid pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus= they are born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill m= akcu2 / verba3 here?).

Now combine butterflies, Ap= hids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are supposed to= correctly describe life cycles of all of them then new precise words (not = tanru) are unavoidable.



That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for n= on-humans.=C2=A0 But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the h= uman tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit.=C2=A0 An= d tanru are most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases).<= br>
Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be li= mited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth.
=
This already happened although of course one can asse= rt that no one knows it sufficiently.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojb= an, no doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biologi= cal concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me.<= br>
le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the bi= ological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.=C2=A0 If the= word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.

A brivla meaning =C2=A0"x1 is a liv= e being helpless by standard x2" is needed.

=
=C2=A0 The gismu places structures were limited by charact= er count, so I often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a preci= se definition.

lojbab


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--
mu'o mi'e .aio= nys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patf= u do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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--f46d043be0a6b5673605175b6515--