Received: from mail-wi0-f188.google.com ([209.85.212.188]:34328) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Yz4lw-0005Fh-6y for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:38 -0700 Received: by wibbw19 with SMTP id bw19sf15223269wib.1 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=12qzNiikzWVElwwFG4I4eYGZAO1YK1IXhN+9gvjZ/1U=; b=R5mHqrf5cCVM2TjialXR48FEIM8FkLkEA0e8G4javuuBI0+KBYmNaBAaK4gD4rELIR WcaeOrNRYdq/qMj5OO2inJIav3UqF67ycZExLzy7QoM8/p+L/ccLuIYry9fbtfd+DBTD yY3i0Q86mfeRf4nRYCIGwnXJPns/HP97abouhr7zfVpxsIQQgEmklqSu19aI/2/Bl3g8 /9fMT8xc7Uu2bAuXkViZ1VOJ3iMCaiblo2411JkR0bpvux6JW02SsCeOBPSz1vBi1rnM dwiceAZo2Jp5xBJ0hoSTsHF4momVHeeumtJFiWRW2pPxHuuAxJbLYZvNdyYwKsLV0p30 rSQg== X-Received: by 10.180.211.45 with SMTP id mz13mr40161wic.19.1433084605641; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.105.132 with SMTP id gm4ls490725wib.31.gmail; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.106.10 with SMTP id gq10mr7305160wib.0.1433084605213; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k2si375494wif.0.2015.05.31.08.03.25 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f; Received: by mail-wi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id o1so76277246wiz.1 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.205.225 with SMTP id lj1mr33115678wjc.138.1433084605087; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:03:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5ADFB384-9B33-4BF9-B2AB-642E05C49ADF@evertype.com> References: <1668540.L6pQx4xKKk@caracal> <9248C4CE-DAAE-4BB4-8A28-C6C579472035@evertype.com> <2A580ECF-BBF0-43E3-8C95-2ADF1CF8A532@evertype.com> <5565C857.4020702@gmx.de> <5565E5EC.6030308@gmail.com> <5566038E.6030201@gmail.com> <471E8D58-43C0-4B8A-97E3-927640DF9D89@evertype.com> <5ADFB384-9B33-4BF9-B2AB-642E05C49ADF@evertype.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:03:02 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b9e4d1c6ae0517620250 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bd6b9e4d1c6ae0517620250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-31 17:56 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson : > On 29 May 2015, at 08:00, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > > >>> Lojban's design is not at all optimized to make life easy for its > learners or speakers. Its users could adopt conventions that eschew many > elements of its design, in order to make life easier for its users, but > that requires a consensus in usage and entails a de facto repudiation of > those many elements eschewed. > >> > >> Logical referents but semilogical structure? Okay. > > > > In what way is it semi-logical? What is logical for you? > > Lojban is logical mostly in a sense that it is easily parsable. > > I guess I thought of lu/li=E2=80=99u and sei/se=E2=80=99u like opening an= d closing > parentheses and having open parentheses in the language for both of those > pairs but mandatory closing parentheses only for one of them doesn=E2=80= =99t seem > consistent. > > > {sei} and bridi tails have different grammar. The selbri itself > terminates {sei}-clause, thus the end of {sei}-clause is 100%-predictable= . > When the selbri is encountered it's the signal that {sei}-clause just end= ed. > > Only if you know what a selbri is (or whether or not a given word is a > selbri). And that means knowledge of the language, unless selbris are > identifiable by their syllable structure or something. Yes, sure. By their morphology and by knowledge of a limited set of particles that can work as selbri. > If not, then external knowledge must be there to identify the members of = a > class called selbri. > > By the way as a linguist I find Lojban to be completely opaque in not > using words like verb or noun or adjective. > Some newer learning resources use those terms for the benefit of speakers of English, French, Portuguese, Russian: 1. http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft) 2. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0Bxngu1CNj7wdSmRCNDVVbFJ4VE0/0Bxngu1= CNj7wdfnh2eXU2TTFJZi1TeDV1cVlqbjl6TWxYbXgwbldRRzRoaFF5ay1oOFlWYVk This of course doesn't change the language. It's a purely paedagogical issue. > At the same time, the argument/predicate thing (and the sentence tree) > makes no sense to me at all, and just reminds me of the horror of > generative grammar. :-O > > But, Gleki, if you want to work with me on this I think it would be fun, > and wouldn=E2=80=99t take so much time perhaps. > > > > sei/se'u is regular; it just is regular according to rules less simpl= e > than you would prefer. > > > > Well, it does make it impossible to apply punctuation automatically, > since the only way that one could do so is to have a script that would > parse a variable-lengths string following =E2=80=9Csei=E2=80=9D to find t= he word of the > selbri class. Not that the application of punctuation is a goal of Lojban= . > > > > I see, so you want to put European-like punctuation at the end of > {sei}-clauses. This is certainly possible. Are you planning to publish an= y > other books apart from Alice? > > Could do, if it is fun. :-) > > > If yes, then it's a matter of several patches to existing parsers to > output such punctuation. Instead of " SEhU-clause?" we'll just have " > (SEhU-clause / { ' =E2=80=93 ' } ) =E2=80=9C. > > So the parser can identify a selbri? > Yes, parsers can identify the structure of sentences, syntactical position of individual words. This is mostly what "parsing" means. > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bd6b9e4d1c6ae0517620250 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-31 17:56 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>:
On 29 May 2015, at 08:00= , Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is= .my.name@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>>> Lojban's design is not at all optimized to make life easy = for its learners or speakers. Its users could adopt conventions that eschew= many elements of its design, in order to make life easier for its users, b= ut that requires a consensus in usage and entails a de facto repudiation of= those many elements eschewed.
>>
>> Logical referents but semilogical structure? Okay.
>
> In what way=C2=A0 is it semi-logical? What is logical for you?
> Lojban is logical mostly in a sense that it is easily parsable.

I guess I thought of lu/li=E2=80=99u and sei/se=E2=80=99u like openi= ng and closing parentheses and having open parentheses in the language for = both of those pairs but mandatory closing parentheses only for one of them = doesn=E2=80=99t seem consistent.

> {sei} and bridi tails have different grammar. The selbri itself termin= ates {sei}-clause, thus the end of {sei}-clause is 100%-predictable. When t= he selbri is encountered it's the signal that {sei}-clause just ended.<= br>
Only if you know what a selbri is (or whether or not a given word is= a selbri). And that means knowledge of the language, unless selbris are id= entifiable by their syllable structure or something.

<= /div>
Yes, sure. By their morphology and by knowledge of a limited set = of particles that can work as selbri.

=C2=A0
=
If not, then external knowledge must be there to identify= the members of a class called selbri.

By the way as a linguist I find Lojban to be completely opaque in not using= words like verb or noun or adjective.

= Some newer learning resources use those terms for the benefit of speakers o= f English, French, Portuguese, Russian:=C2=A0

= This of course doesn't change the language. It's a purely paedagogi= cal issue.


At the same time, the argument/predicate thing (and the sentence tree) make= s no sense to me at all, and just reminds me of the horror of generative gr= ammar. :-O

But, Gleki, if you want to work with me on this I think it would be fun, an= d wouldn=E2=80=99t take so much time perhaps.

> > sei/se'u is regular; it just is regular according to rules le= ss simple than you would prefer.
>
> Well, it does make it impossible to apply punctuation automatically, s= ince the only way that one could do so is to have a script that would parse= a variable-lengths string following =E2=80=9Csei=E2=80=9D to find the word= of the selbri class. Not that the application of punctuation is a goal of = Lojban.
>
> I see,=C2=A0 so you want to put European-like punctuation at the end o= f {sei}-clauses. This is certainly possible. Are you planning to publish an= y other books apart from Alice?

Could do, if it is fun. :-)

> If yes, then it's a matter of several patches to existing parsers = to output such punctuation. Instead of " SEhU-clause?" we'll = just have " (SEhU-clause / { ' =E2=80=93 ' } ) =E2=80=9C.

So the parser can identify a selbri?

=
Yes, parsers can identify the structure of sentences, syntactical posi= tion of individual words. This is mostly what "parsing" means.


Michael Everson * ht= tp://www.evertype.com/

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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