Received: from mail-qk0-f183.google.com ([209.85.220.183]:32872) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Yz6YQ-0006rM-3o for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:49 -0700 Received: by qkby64 with SMTP id y64sf28534161qkb.0 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=EDhxM7Nm5xKk+vt24Vj3vBKWHC0bINOeieCh9mcKToQ=; b=A1Wk+t85Vfx6edxdt9trwZDr86HEaBT4i6DhJV232R3ZAein7rBexyxPHnOPVzGg3h l+MFDPShXvAoL85N6VIgctfgnDltnFImKhqR+1Gx/XEK5I8GY4liM/FL0DhIl0RNnlrV mOZLND8vZvuBJeYsxIpfGqnMvXMTPF0T6rDxBtacyt92XHC8lpYm7nW8gydIHvJCHOBz cmeQBj+2mWai35NvqTkDQq0cdV4GKe970Zm2h497IsLmY7eDtXsGP8LdLUYtiWpw/t8d nSkReLdSI7qHJP6xJ+ENTNKIL2/5tTgZwuWOXDMxdGIL0O5kpCnldApqGUphl/fCDW7U QOHQ== X-Received: by 10.140.36.234 with SMTP id p97mr229917qgp.28.1433091455983; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.107.55 with SMTP id g52ls2139408qgf.82.gmail; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.105.196 with SMTP id k44mr23345808yhg.16.1433091455717; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x236.google.com (mail-qc0-x236.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id lg9si1466573qcb.1.2015.05.31.09.57.35 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236; Received: by mail-qc0-x236.google.com with SMTP id w10so40675814qcx.3 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.119.131 with SMTP id z3mr13611607qcq.17.1433091455582; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.228.69 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.228.69 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 10:57:35 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113330da24090e0517639b5c X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113330da24090e0517639b5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 "Helpless" On May 31, 2015 1:10 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > > 2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi >> >> Because Zipf: tcudjure'i >> > > uanai i srana ma > > >> >> On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG >>> : >>> >>>> On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>>> >>>>> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" baby. >>>>> >>>> >>>> No. It means baby. The "helpless" was my biologically-naive >>>> perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a "child" is >>>> relative helplessness. >>> >>> >>> infant = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between six >>> months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or >>> attention* >>> >>> >>>> I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and >>>> becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someone >>>> change their diapers. (And I wouldn't be surprised if different languages >>>> divide up human development differently than English does) >>>> >>> >>> "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts >>> there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant. >>> >>> Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate >>> to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of >>> development like larva/imago. >>> >>> They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate >>> them when needed. >>> >>> One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid >>> pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are >>> born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 >>> here?). >>> >>> Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and >>> tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of >>> them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable. >>> >>> >>> >>>> That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for >>>> non-humans. But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the human >>>> tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit. And tanru are >>>> most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases). >>>> >>>> Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be >>>> limited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth. >>> >>> >>> This already happened although of course one can assert that no one >>> knows it sufficiently. >>> >>> >>>> And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no >>>> doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological >>>> concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me. >>>> >>>> le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the >>>> biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael. If the >>>> word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording. >>> >>> >>> A brivla meaning "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is needed. >>> >>> The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so I >>>> often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition. >>>> >>>> lojbab >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113330da24090e0517639b5c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Helpless"

On May 31, 2015 1:10 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna&qu= ot; <gleki.is.my.name@gmai= l.com> wrote:


2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
nitcu tese s= idju nunrenvi

Because Zipf: tcudjure'i

uanai i srana ma
=C2=A0

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki A= rxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

=
2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeCheva= lier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org>:
On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "= helpless" baby.

 No.=C2=A0 It means baby.=C2=A0 The "helpless" was my biologically= -naive perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" a= nd a "child" is relative helplessness.

infant =C2=A0=3D A very young human being, from birth to somew= here between six months and two years of age, needing almost constant ca= re and/or attention
=C2=A0
=C2=A0= I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a b= aby and becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having = to have someone change their diapers.=C2=A0 (And I wouldn't be surprise= d if different languages divide up human development differently than Engli= sh does)

"infant" in h= umans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts there isn't= strict border when a human being stops being an infant.

Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappro= priate to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of d= evelopment like larva/imago.

They mean different t= hings and it will be helpful to clearly separate them when needed.

One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with an= other Aphid pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus= they are born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill m= akcu2 / verba3 here?).

Now combine butterflies, Ap= hids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are supposed to= correctly describe life cycles of all of them then new precise words (not = tanru) are unavoidable.



That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for n= on-humans.=C2=A0 But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the h= uman tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit.=C2=A0 An= d tanru are most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases).<= br>
Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be li= mited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth.
=
This already happened although of course one can asse= rt that no one knows it sufficiently.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojb= an, no doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biologi= cal concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me.<= br>
le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the bi= ological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.=C2=A0 If the= word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.

A brivla meaning =C2=A0"x1 is a liv= e being helpless by standard x2" is needed.

=
=C2=A0 The gismu places structures were limited by charact= er count, so I often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a preci= se definition.

lojbab


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= --
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&= #39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
= (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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--
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--001a113330da24090e0517639b5c--