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Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 18:12:24 -0400
From: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu
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On 5/31/2015 2:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG
> <lojbab@lojban.org <mailto:lojbab@lojban.org>>:
>
>     On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>
>         okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a
>         "helpless" baby.
>
>
>     No.  It means baby.  The "helpless" was my biologically-naive
>     perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a
>     "child" is relative helplessness.
>
>
> infant  = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between six
> months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or attention*
>
>        I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby
>     and becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have
>     someone change their diapers.  (And I wouldn't be surprised if
>     different languages divide up human development differently than
>     English does)
>
>
> "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts
> there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant.
>
> Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate
> to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of
> development like larva/imago.

Why is it inappropriate?  People do it.  Most people neither know nor 
care about development stages for non-human species.

> They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate
> them when needed.

That is what lujvo are for - to refine meanings when a gismu might be 
taken too broadly.

> Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and
> tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all
> of them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable.

Precise words don't really exist.  If you are trying for "technical 
jargon for precise concepts", that might be possible; such things are 
more akin to names than to "words".  Thus we have subatomic properties 
called and "color" and "strangeness" and "charm".

To make those as Lojban words, you either have to fu'ivla from the 
English wordforms, or you can make a lujvo from skari or cizra and 
whatever the Lojban word is for the typical meaning of the English word 
"charm".

Either way would be valid.

>        And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban,
>     no doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our
>     biological concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't
>     convince me.
>
>     le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the
>     biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.  If
>     the word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.
>
> A brivla meaning  "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is needed.

Probably.  If I ever need one, I'll coin a lujvo based on the particular 
meaning/standard that I have in mind.  tolmakcu, cifsmi, rolseldju all 
seem plausible, having different emphases on what sort of helplessness 
is referred to.

But cifnu by itself was never intended to be such a word.  And that 
isn't the meaning Robin had in mind when he used "jbocifnu".

lojbab

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