Received: from mail-lb0-f185.google.com ([209.85.217.185]:33649) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YzPwk-00043y-HH for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:40:18 -0700 Received: by lbdu14 with SMTP id u14sf37941313lbd.0 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=BHBcOG1RwJzDNjQCjjzB6yNUYfTktVhtJQrRTS/5jIs=; b=Dx1ggLbv16MpuDBo0puavIkbYox153xCUXvmhPy2LP1dJUfLDzersfMBgdOzwlHGtx 4Fg0i2jTOuuKAJnzd5vAqBY5+pMj8OEDUPV7XpeCtNKFks/NvxgMKvIsMsNbmvMTMkVI OQbGRMli4krOMqXVzhKWC31WrIGbmm8h3fhT9jwwmsUx71vIdItRYIziKfiaEyrN6pF5 ddTiinCWl8isaXw6hOTEjeUmX6ChtmjOdqWt9oQ/WIpB/8NcO6HOE3KOo+cfzxaeSm0k uI2hjuYDurEI5aljvlO5M+klik1sWqtkEreASvLMOI/006K8oQHuUEPl3NUdEaZa+MoR IQ5Q== X-Received: by 10.152.179.161 with SMTP id dh1mr200886lac.38.1433165999433; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.42.137 with SMTP id o9ls585079lal.16.gmail; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.14.101 with SMTP id o5mr20728810lbc.3.1433165998846; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si507927wiz.0.2015.06.01.06.39.58 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d; Received: by mail-wi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id dq8so29551472wib.1 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.109.229 with SMTP id hv5mr42153087wjb.119.1433165998685; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 06:39:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 16:39:35 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b60441a4184c7051774f600 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b60441a4184c7051774f600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 da'i mi stidi tu'a lu lo sau se kurji li'u 2015-05-31 19:57 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > "Helpless" > On May 31, 2015 1:10 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" > wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >> >>> nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi >>> >>> Because Zipf: tcudjure'i >>> >> >> uanai i srana ma >> >> >>> >>> On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG >>>> : >>>> >>>>> On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" >>>>>> baby. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No. It means baby. The "helpless" was my biologically-naive >>>>> perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a "child" is >>>>> relative helplessness. >>>> >>>> >>>> infant = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between six >>>> months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or >>>> attention* >>>> >>>> >>>>> I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and >>>>> becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someone >>>>> change their diapers. (And I wouldn't be surprised if different languages >>>>> divide up human development differently than English does) >>>>> >>>> >>>> "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many >>>> concepts there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant. >>>> >>>> Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate >>>> to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of >>>> development like larva/imago. >>>> >>>> They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate >>>> them when needed. >>>> >>>> One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid >>>> pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are >>>> born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 >>>> here?). >>>> >>>> Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and >>>> tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of >>>> them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for >>>>> non-humans. But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the human >>>>> tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit. And tanru are >>>>> most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases). >>>>> >>>>> Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be >>>>> limited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth. >>>> >>>> >>>> This already happened although of course one can assert that no one >>>> knows it sufficiently. >>>> >>>> >>>>> And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no >>>>> doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological >>>>> concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me. >>>>> >>>>> le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the >>>>> biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael. If the >>>>> word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording. >>>> >>>> >>>> A brivla meaning "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is >>>> needed. >>>> >>>> The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so I >>>>> often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition. >>>>> >>>>> lojbab >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b60441a4184c7051774f600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
da'i mi stidi tu'a lu lo sau se kurji li'u

2015-05-31 19:5= 7 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:

"Helpless"

On May 31, 2015 1:10 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna&qu= ot; <gle= ki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus= @gmail.com>:
nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi

Because Zipf: tcudjure'i=

uanai i srana ma
=C2= =A0

On Sun, May 31, 2= 015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:


2015-05-30 23:= 05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.o= rg>:
On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Ar= xokuna wrote:
okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "= helpless" baby.

 No.=C2=A0 It means baby.=C2=A0 The "helpless" was my biologically= -naive perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" a= nd a "child" is relative helplessness.

infant =C2=A0=3D A very young human being, from birth to somew= here between six months and two years of age, needing almost constant ca= re and/or attention
=C2=A0
=C2=A0= I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a b= aby and becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having = to have someone change their diapers.=C2=A0 (And I wouldn't be surprise= d if different languages divide up human development differently than Engli= sh does)

"infant" in h= umans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts there isn't= strict border when a human being stops being an infant.

Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappro= priate to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of d= evelopment like larva/imago.

They mean different t= hings and it will be helpful to clearly separate them when needed.

One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with an= other Aphid pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus= they are born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill m= akcu2 / verba3 here?).

Now combine butterflies, Ap= hids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are supposed to= correctly describe life cycles of all of them then new precise words (not = tanru) are unavoidable.



That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for n= on-humans.=C2=A0 But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the h= uman tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit.=C2=A0 An= d tanru are most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases).<= br>
Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be li= mited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth.
=
This already happened although of course one can asse= rt that no one knows it sufficiently.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojb= an, no doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biologi= cal concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me.<= br>
le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the bi= ological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.=C2=A0 If the= word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.

A brivla meaning =C2=A0"x1 is a liv= e being helpless by standard x2" is needed.

=
=C2=A0 The gismu places structures were limited by charact= er count, so I often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a preci= se definition.

lojbab


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= --
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&= #39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
= (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
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--047d7b60441a4184c7051774f600--