Received: from mail-wi0-f185.google.com ([209.85.212.185]:32827) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YzROd-0005VD-Gn for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:13:07 -0700 Received: by wibbw19 with SMTP id bw19sf18977752wib.0 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=lV6ILGRXTYxhcjHooRATcdmutXxWIFhgHoI47vCrNEQ=; b=WJfCJjNe1/W6uk5EabA6eoZFdkXzOsO/+06O5XcyjPkVReYRTor0ztfcB42ze9fmj6 xnNb3t2dx4uEjBcUQNoPWaxLyR2G7nnHYFPVQrvs5kFvoRBrxTqjctNughClpqhEFEGg Nf+a9z3u7rC2K3ttvZ/APLkOTwYgqx9BbKwtcKraAvXddY7Xu3480opsiBF2ZgVO43rw KTKEiuFe1pJK8uhvU6hsLAM3bjPG3TU3VmNhN1oTInZDHazz7GxW4YW/SeTtVNdzeQ3G H5cSpG7G7ZjPnvx5cnGu8ZkSvRxjcq3FTQGWQN1eWQEI6HKGjkJv/mqSqy6nRwXUHs6N 4ifw== X-Received: by 10.152.29.5 with SMTP id f5mr241208lah.19.1433171572914; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.43.228 with SMTP id z4ls556559lal.90.gmail; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.171.41 with SMTP id ar9mr21330482lbc.24.1433171572277; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si521771wiz.0.2015.06.01.08.12.52 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e; Received: by mail-wi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id dq8so32566290wib.1 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.5.103 with SMTP id r7mr40877748wjr.47.1433171572131; Mon, 01 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.226.195 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <884b3156-d02e-427c-9a31-788cee4ef966@googlegroups.com> <556A1812.8090705@lojban.org> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:12:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b4512f2758e7e0517764271 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b4512f2758e7e0517764271 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yeah, I was just about to suggest ku'itcu --gejyspa On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > da'i mi stidi tu'a lu lo sau se kurji li'u > > 2015-05-31 19:57 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> "Helpless" >> On May 31, 2015 1:10 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : >>> >>>> nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi >>>> >>>> Because Zipf: tcudjure'i >>>> >>> >>> uanai i srana ma >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-05-30 23:05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - >>>>> LLG : >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "helpless" >>>>>>> baby. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No. It means baby. The "helpless" was my biologically-naive >>>>>> perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" and a "child" is >>>>>> relative helplessness. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> infant = A very young human being, from birth to somewhere between >>>>> six months and two years of age, *needing almost constant care and/or >>>>> attention* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a baby and >>>>>> becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having to have someone >>>>>> change their diapers. (And I wouldn't be surprised if different languages >>>>>> divide up human development differently than English does) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "infant" in humans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many >>>>> concepts there isn't strict border when a human being stops being an infant. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappropriate >>>>> to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of >>>>> development like larva/imago. >>>>> >>>>> They mean different things and it will be helpful to clearly separate >>>>> them when needed. >>>>> >>>>> One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with another Aphid >>>>> pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus they are >>>>> born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill makcu2 / verba3 >>>>> here?). >>>>> >>>>> Now combine butterflies, Aphids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and >>>>> tardigrades. If we are supposed to correctly describe life cycles of all of >>>>> them then new precise words (not tanru) are unavoidable. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for >>>>>> non-humans. But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the human >>>>>> tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit. And tanru are >>>>>> most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases). >>>>>> >>>>>> Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be >>>>>> limited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This already happened although of course one can assert that no one >>>>> knows it sufficiently. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojban, no >>>>>> doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biological >>>>>> concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me. >>>>>> >>>>>> le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the >>>>>> biological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael. If the >>>>>> word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A brivla meaning "x1 is a live being helpless by standard x2" is >>>>> needed. >>>>> >>>>> The gismu places structures were limited by character count, so I >>>>>> often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a precise definition. >>>>>> >>>>>> lojbab >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b4512f2758e7e0517764271 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Yeah, I was just about to suggest ku'itcu
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa
<= br>
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokun= a <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
da'i mi stidi tu'a lu lo sau = se kurji li'u

2015-05-31 19:57 GMT+03:00 = Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:

"Helpless"

On May 31, 2015 1:10 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna&qu= ot; <gle= ki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2015-05-31 9:21 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus= @gmail.com>:
nitcu tese sidju nunrenvi

Because Zipf: tcudjure'i=

uanai i srana ma
=C2= =A0

On Sun, May 31, 2= 015 at 12:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:


2015-05-30 23:= 05 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.o= rg>:
On 5/29/2015 2:15 PM, Gleki Ar= xokuna wrote:
okay, but {lo cifnu} doesn't mean "baby". It denotes a "= helpless" baby.

 No.=C2=A0 It means baby.=C2=A0 The "helpless" was my biologically= -naive perception that the semantic difference between a "baby" a= nd a "child" is relative helplessness.

infant =C2=A0=3D A very young human being, from birth to somew= here between six months and two years of age, needing almost constant ca= re and/or attention
=C2=A0
=C2=A0= I can't tell you at what age/stage a "baby" ceases to be a b= aby and becomes a "child" other than that helplessness of having = to have someone change their diapers.=C2=A0 (And I wouldn't be surprise= d if different languages divide up human development differently than Engli= sh does)

"infant" in h= umans is really helpless. Obviously, like for many concepts there isn't= strict border when a human being stops being an infant.

Anyway, the question was about caterpillar. I think it's inappro= priate to mix the three concepts of helplessness, immaturity and stage of d= evelopment like larva/imago.

They mean different t= hings and it will be helpful to clearly separate them when needed.

One more example are Aphids that are born pregnant with an= other Aphid pregnant too (thus three Aphids nested within each other). Thus= they are born both as "babies" but as mature ones (always fill m= akcu2 / verba3 here?).

Now combine butterflies, Ap= hids, salamanders, humans, cangaroos and tardigrades. If we are supposed to= correctly describe life cycles of all of them then new precise words (not = tanru) are unavoidable.



That other animals don't wear diapers makes the analogy imperfect for n= on-humans.=C2=A0 But Lojban words aren't really intended to solve the h= uman tendency to metaphorize concepts that don't strictly fit.=C2=A0 An= d tanru are most definitely include metaphors (as do gismu in some cases).<= br>
Biological reality isn't especially relevant, unless Lojban is to be li= mited only to those who know biology in sufficient depth.
=
This already happened although of course one can asse= rt that no one knows it sufficiently.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 And by the time we have some non-human species speaking Lojb= an, no doubt the extraterrestrial biology will overturn most of our biologi= cal concepts, so claiming that Lojban is malremna doesn't convince me.<= br>
le jbocifnu pe la camgusmis almost certainly wouldn't understand the bi= ological distinctions being argued. I thus agree with Michael.=C2=A0 If the= word "helpless" isn't optimal, find some other wording.

A brivla meaning =C2=A0"x1 is a liv= e being helpless by standard x2" is needed.

=
=C2=A0 The gismu places structures were limited by charact= er count, so I often used a single word that wasn't necessarily a preci= se definition.

lojbab


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= --
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&= #39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
= (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--047d7b4512f2758e7e0517764271--