Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Proposal: loi lerfu tcita detri; the final word on
 the problem of dates and times?
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Le lundi 1 juin 2015 08:03:51 UTC, guskant a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> I know that the form of the sumti in de'i/ti'u/te'i is indeed your=20
> proposal. I mentioned de'i'V series only for letting you know the shortes=
t=20
> form is {de'i'u ma}, not {ca de'i li jydy xo}. I don't intend to discuss=
=20
> the current topic for now. Please continue without me.
>
> mu'o
>
>
Although I said I don't intend to join the discussion, I change my mind=20
because I observed on bpfk-list a movement toward modifying the grammar=20
around lerfu and numerals.=20
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/GQ9Mnwieue0/discussion

First, creating a convention for a sumti in {de'i/ti'u/te'i} clause is not=
=20
at all interest me. If we need, we can always specify the structure and=20
meaning of sumti by a {vede'i/veti'u} clause according to official English=
=20
definition, or by a {tede'i/teti'u/tete'i} clause according to experimental=
=20
Lojban definition.

Secondly, removing {pi'e}s in li clause is nonsense. Even though {pi'e}=20
separates digits, it denotes one number, on which carrying may occur across=
=20
{pi'e} in calculation. For example, {de'i li 2015 pi'e 5 pi'e 31 su'i=20
pi'epi'e 1} should mean the same date as {de'i li 2015 pi'e 6 pi'e 1}. In=
=20
usual mathematical notation and in ISO_8601, a number is represented in the=
=20
form "higher column to the left". In the case of date, a number [ny:ly:dy]=
=20
means [365*nyxipy+366*nyxiky]+[29*lyxity+30*lyxixy+31*lyxizy]+dy, where the=
=20
bases [365/366] [29/30/31] should vary according to a complicated but=20
unique rule. You may change the order of columns "{vede'i lo drata be=20
I'ySyO'y xi 8601}" if you want.

Thirdly, You don't need selma'o LI if you remove {pi'e}: removing {pi'e}=20
breaks separation of digits on different bases. The resulting string of=20
numerals and lerfu is out of mathematical rule. If you once abandon=20
carrying of calculation, you can use raw lerfu as sumti in arbitrary order:=
=20
{de'i jydyxi2 joi lyxi5 joi dyxi26 joi nyxi2015}. There are no need of=20
modifying grammar.

Sorry for bothering, but I don't understand the reason for modifying=20
grammar for such an indifferent-to-me matter. I would be in favor of=20
modifying grammar if any more important requirement occurred, though,
=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le lundi 1 juin 2015 08:03:51 UTC, guskant a =C3=
=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><br></div><div>I know that the form of the sumti in de'i/ti'u/te'i is=
 indeed your proposal. I mentioned de'i'V series only for letting you know =
the shortest form is {de'i'u ma}, not&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80=
);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">{ca de'i li jy=
dy xo}. I don't intend to discuss the current topic for now. Please continu=
e without me.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-famil=
y:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800=
0001907349px">mu'o</span></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Although I said I don't intend to join the discussion, I change m=
y mind because I observed on bpfk-list a movement toward modifying the gram=
mar around lerfu and numerals.&nbsp;</div><div>https://groups.google.com/d/=
topic/bpfk-list/GQ9Mnwieue0/discussion<br></div><div><br></div><div>First, =
creating a convention for a sumti in {de'i/ti'u/te'i} clause is not at all =
interest me. If we need, we can always specify the structure and meaning of=
 sumti by a {vede'i/veti'u} clause according to official English definition=
, or by a {tede'i/teti'u/tete'i} clause according to experimental Lojban de=
finition.</div><div><br></div><div>Secondly, removing {pi'e}s in li clause =
is nonsense. Even though {pi'e} separates digits, it denotes one number, on=
 which carrying may occur across {pi'e} in calculation. For example, {de'i =
li 2015 pi'e 5 pi'e 31 su'i pi'epi'e 1} should mean the same date as {de'i =
li 2015 pi'e 6 pi'e 1}. In usual mathematical notation and in ISO_8601, a n=
umber is represented in the form "higher column to the left". In the case o=
f date, a number [ny:ly:dy] means [365*nyxipy+366*nyxiky]+[29*lyxity+30*lyx=
ixy+31*lyxizy]+dy, where the bases [365/366] [29/30/31] should vary accordi=
ng to a complicated but unique rule. You may change the order of columns "{=
vede'i lo drata be I'ySyO'y xi 8601}" if you want.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Thirdly, You don't need selma'o LI if you remove {pi'e}: removing {pi'e} b=
reaks separation of digits on different bases. The resulting string of nume=
rals and lerfu is out of mathematical rule. If you once abandon carrying of=
 calculation, you can use raw lerfu as sumti in arbitrary order: {de'i jydy=
xi2 joi lyxi5 joi dyxi26 joi nyxi2015}. There are no need of modifying gram=
mar.</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for bothering, but I don't understand t=
he reason for modifying grammar for such an indifferent-to-me matter. I wou=
ld be in favor of modifying grammar if any more important requirement occur=
red, though,</div><div>&nbsp;<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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