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[98.138.91.247]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x12si291764igx.1.2015.06.09.13.55.42 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.247 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.247; Received: from [98.138.100.102] by nm25.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2015 20:55:42 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.164] by tm101.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2015 20:55:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1065.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2015 20:55:42 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 359457.73574.bm@omp1065.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: xTP46BEVM1nL8OgcApbyCgRld9gLyjsx5VaUDfXxRBP_wlFxqAT9aZ3btSZa5v4 0SZofUlbRNq0.8_0LDzoqh3Hnb_vgWbxPGONEQ1KAqCwO8Uxnldu3I.FWRAXFDjoZyKmX_CfaGpd PTNT.v_seM1zuTtZl9PV_Q_8q04bexpG8L_8iWTXB0RQI30bsOgIvblntu8V2O_hk_TUpjlIs5hI ocmpG3rlLcQIhEymPHmwitfUkNC20RAqvsZjuKFH.81a2IhefMX4t25Yw_uqnA_SbX6uqXmHFRpg ElXWb2TYEG_dbSp4l7R93GMu2yH5cX.mbru9lIhgqwhRTGn2A.2ymBgP1srQn0N5u8s1yoZFmRt9 arLLlCytYRchdh8BkTS.vP5.tYWTiM30JHL6xlCsi6CY0mTVJHmWblpqcZEoN1ZLd0erltVgVWcs g5BZUMzBiE5NmB35ShzRsezWt5jhqYeR.zJYX7vE34Dx8pHpQES0FwWt0F5Fn2dEnCNAFSJVHJIF bnUaDHkD6X1Aee3c6GcMOmH4sjtPJ7SMBNUZCDc2bZDDhJ_kCzmo- Received: by 98.138.105.248; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 20:55:41 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 20:55:41 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Message-ID: <1005976280.8317935.1433883341283.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] "General you"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8317934_1786921261.1433883341274" Content-Length:10643 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.247 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) X-Spam_score: -3.1 X-Spam_score_int: -30 X-Spam_bar: --- ------=_Part_8317934_1786921261.1433883341274 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable English has several idioms to cover general advice, "you" (particularly app= ropriate when intended for immediate application by a hearer), "one" (kinda= pompous or disparaging) and "someone" (or even "a person"). Other language= s handle the matter is other ways, similar or different. =C2=A0The question= is, how does Lojban handle it? =C2=A0Prescriptively, the answer is: it's a= variable, since it's general. =C2=A0But the issue is whether using {do} is= simply wrong -- and malglico -- or is a legitimate idiom that grows out of= good Lojban usage (at some small cost to logicality, as with all idioms). = =C2=A0Personally, I'd stick with nice safe {da}, but I am not an active mem= ber of the Lojban speech community, so don't get a vote.=20 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 3:31 PM, MorphemeAddict w= rote: =20 When I pointed out the indefinite 'you' in a Klingon example (bIje'be'chug= h vaj bIHegh - If you don't buy, then you die; buy or die!), the rest of th= e Klingon list membership considered it just fine, as if it were just an ex= ample of regular 'you'. Maybe it is.=C2=A0 stevo On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Spheniscine (la zipcpi) wrote: I have recently become aware of my use of {do} for the "general you" and I = don't think that's good; it's a common source of confusion in English. {doi= ma}? Perhaps {lo'e prenu} (lo su'a prenu?) is better, but I wonder if some= thing in KOhA7 might be useful? (maybe one of Curtis' infamous zmico alread= y means that; but I can't understand their descriptions) By the way in English, I think I'll try to use the word "one" instead of th= e general-you; it's a lost art. I can't tell you* how many times I've accid= entally insulted people with the "general you". *can't tell one? Well this also happens to apply to anyone who reads this..= .--=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_8317934_1786921261.1433883341274 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
English has several idioms to cover general advice, "you"= (particularly appropriate when intended for immediate application by a hea= rer), "one" (kinda pompous or disparaging) and "someone" (or even "a person= "). Other languages handle the matter is other ways, similar or different. =  The question is, how does Lojban handle it?  Prescriptively, the= answer is: it's a variable, since it's general.  But the issue is whe= ther using {do} is simply wrong -- and malglico -- or is a legitimate idiom= that grows out of good Lojban usage (at some small cost to logicality, as = with all idioms).  Personally, I'd stick with nice safe {da}, but I am= not an active member of the Lojban speech community, so don't get a vote.<= /span>



On Tuesday, Ju= ne 9, 2015 3:31 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:


When I pointed out the indefinite 'you' in a Klingo= n example (bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHegh - If you don't buy, then you die; buy or die!= ), the rest of the Klingon list membership considered it just fine, = as if it were just an example of regular 'you'. Maybe it is. 

stevo

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Spheniscine (la zipcpi) <s= pheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:
I have recently become awar= e of my use of {do} for the "general you" and I don't think that's good; it= 's a common source of confusion in English. {doi ma}? Perhaps {lo'e prenu} = (lo su'a prenu?) is better, but I wonder if something in KOhA7 might be use= ful? (maybe one of Curtis' infamous zmico already means that; but I can't u= nderstand their descriptions)

By the way = in English, I think I'll try to use the word "one" instead of the general-y= ou; it's a lost art. I can't tell you* how many times I've accidentally ins= ulted people with the "general you".

*can't tell one? Well this also happens to apply to anyone who reads this= ...
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