Received: from mail-la0-f58.google.com ([209.85.215.58]:34240) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Z9y68-000354-AF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:30 -0700 Received: by lams18 with SMTP id s18sf6133766lam.1 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=xv6ClcEhlx3vQwzhQ0E9OsOZcpIDKQF4XyzsrGA/63s=; b=LGkweSf/HTCBAcyy9AND5U0J5qeU4K2zE0fHsvHKNUuo+83BcbvirUEv6ZsThKaTbK GgW/OkqZf2pbllj+Yodbv8RstnMxMwcQwD9Gf+MNHbUY9BIadewzu1iAp67s5TOUzkmQ GBSakT7uACJBY1rqXxP12QcTyH8IUrqDXETt5knUKMD2mDm9HaoDa5uZfWvWcPq7q48o MQoLrV2EwTQqfGf8fcHjb3gMP5Bbe7M8+DO2G8JAm5dCvStKIwzjHEpx3JHpmaqNFbDv z737hQcL6Kdy10pap1xsvahxAR91MMN8sBY36Kd8U2l+YImqIuaTzTqqzpwr6UceyXrt IdYQ== X-Received: by 10.152.115.162 with SMTP id jp2mr199061lab.4.1435680556279; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.88.70 with SMTP id be6ls62635lab.103.gmail; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.88.70 with SMTP id be6mr14446535lab.9.1435680555116; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com (mail-wi0-x230.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cj6si614727wib.1.2015.06.30.09.09.15 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::230; Received: by mail-wi0-x230.google.com with SMTP id l6so137455140wiw.0 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.238.193 with SMTP id vm1mr39281496wjc.57.1435680554947; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:09:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.148.206 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:08:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150630104955.12e1933b@W5.fritz.box> References: <20150630104955.12e1933b@W5.fritz.box> From: Michael Turniansky Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:08:35 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIENMTCBlcnJhdHVtOiDigJwueWJ14oCdIHZzIOKAnC55LmJ14oCd?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01493cec7d1b640519be6dd9 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e01493cec7d1b640519be6dd9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that ybu must not have a pause between the y and bu, following the pattern of the abu, ebu, etc, because if one *did* pause, it would be seen as "y" in its usual meaning (consider -- if you wanted to say "the way to mark a word as being a character instead was with the word....uh...'bu'" Since this could naturally come out unwanted, if you didn't 'y' to be the hesitation marker in that one case, you could never accidentally hesitate before saying the word bu, because it would always be considered the letteral 'y'. Hence, when we really want to talk about the letteral, we must not pause. As I said above, I may be completely wrong --gejyspa On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 4:49 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban wrote: > I think there is some inconsistency in the CLL regarding the letteral > for =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D, the letteral construction rules, and the cmavo = =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D. > > According to CLL, the letteral for =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9C.ybu= =E2=80=9D > > > Therefore, the following table represents the basic Lojban alphabet: > > > > ' a b c d e > > .y'y. .abu by. cy. dy. .ebu > > > > f g i j k l > > fy. gy. .ibu jy. ky. ly. > > > > m n o p r s > > my. ny. .obu py. ry. sy. > > > > t u v x y z > > ty. .ubu vy. xy. .ybu zy. > https://lojban.github.io/cll/17/2/ > > This is also reflected in jbovlaste. Here is the entry for =E2=80=9Cybu= =E2=80=9D: > http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ybu > > This is an =E2=80=9Cofficialdata=E2=80=9D entry. > > > However, there is just one problem: The cmavo =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D require= s pauses > before and after it: > > In addition, there is the cmavo =E2=80=9C.y.=E2=80=9D (remember that = =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D is not a V), > > which must have pauses before and after it. > https://lojban.github.io/cll/4/2/ > > So, why is it =E2=80=9C.ybu=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9C.y.bu=E2=80=9D? > > Note the CLL also presents =E2=80=9C.y'y.bu=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9C.y'ybu= =E2=80=9D, a few pages later. > (and =E2=80=9Cvy.bu=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cky.bu=E2=80=9D). > > I have found no rule in the CLL which would permit =E2=80=9C.ybu=E2=80=9D= . AFAIK > the =E2=80=9Cperiod omitting rule=E2=80=9D only applies if spaces are use= d. So =E2=80=9Cy bu=E2=80=9D > would be fine IMO. > > For me this seems to be a pretty stupid oversight. > > Could the responsible person or persons please quickly confirm this > erratum? And resolve this conflict in the CLL? > > Greetings! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e01493cec7d1b640519be6dd9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that ybu must n= ot have a pause between the y and bu, following the pattern of the abu, ebu= , etc, because if one did=C2=A0pause, it would be seen as "y&qu= ot; in its usual meaning (consider -- if you wanted to say "the way to= mark a word as being a character instead was with the word....uh...'bu= '" Since this could naturally come out unwanted, if you didn't= 'y' to be the hesitation marker in that one case, you could never = accidentally hesitate before saying the word bu, because it would always = =C2=A0be considered the letteral 'y'.=C2=A0 Hence, when we really w= ant to talk about the letteral, we must not pause.

=C2= =A0 As I said above, I may be completely wrong

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Tue, J= un 30, 2015 at 4:49 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban <lojban@googlegro= ups.com> wrote:
I think the= re is some inconsistency in the CLL regarding the letteral
for =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D, the letteral construction rules, and the cmavo =E2= =80=9Cy=E2=80=9D.

According to CLL, the letteral for =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9C.ybu=E2= =80=9D

> Therefore, the following table represents the basic Lojban alphabet: >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 b= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 c=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.y'y.=C2=A0 .abu=C2=A0 =C2=A0by.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c= y.=C2=A0 =C2=A0dy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .ebu
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0f=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 g=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 i=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 j=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 k=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .ibu=C2=A0 =C2=A0= jy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ky.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ly.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0m=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 n=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 p=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 r=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 s
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0my.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ny.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .obu=C2=A0 =C2=A0= py.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ry.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sy.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 u=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 v=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 x=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 y=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 z
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ty.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .ubu=C2=A0 =C2=A0vy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = xy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .ybu=C2=A0 =C2=A0zy.
https://lojban.github.io/cll/17/2/

This is also reflected in jbovlaste. Here is the entry for =E2=80=9Cybu=E2= =80=9D:
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ybu

This is an =E2=80=9Cofficialdata=E2=80=9D entry.


However, there is just one problem: The cmavo =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D requires = pauses
before and after it:
> In addition, there is the cmavo =E2=80=9C.y.=E2=80=9D (remember that = =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D is not a V),
> which must have pauses before and after it.
https://lojban.github.io/cll/4/2/

So, why is it =E2=80=9C.ybu=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9C.y.bu=E2=80=9D?

Note the CLL also presents =E2=80=9C.y'y.bu=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9C.y&#= 39;ybu=E2=80=9D, a few pages later.
(and =E2=80=9Cvy.bu=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cky.bu=E2=80=9D).

I have found no rule in the CLL which would permit =E2=80=9C.ybu=E2=80=9D. = AFAIK
the =E2=80=9Cperiod omitting rule=E2=80=9D only applies if spaces are used.= So =E2=80=9Cy bu=E2=80=9D
would be fine IMO.

For me this seems to be a pretty stupid oversight.

Could the responsible person or persons please quickly confirm this
erratum? And resolve this conflict in the CLL?

Greetings!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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