Received: from mail-la0-f57.google.com ([209.85.215.57]:33879) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZAjcW-0003zJ-3z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:54:05 -0700 Received: by labii6 with SMTP id ii6sf9738054lab.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=toawmBcF5djdd2MY6zsQuMfB/Cd8JxT5AY9JPRS1q7E=; b=CzwdkUK02RCnD3qb2Ag19uGtCho0Nd3vW55uvDZyVNWL6CDJKtLUkQyYC3LiZVbHbt 7d6T2Hu9ZQIZ8TkxUW5uT0JpthUxxoacaqPJlgBoacXUrbtalyrpzrqhH8iO8zWvOBCe 7bzS9yFqKRX5YocDRlBl33wfb8hugBMQXCWM3lMnl/xqtfbr+xWclXvxbYQcNfNiz29g hSRy+GQUyvZjLG8bqaTP6AxLAwk5/tNuTvjFcJtRlhoZoFZPcZ2xTHYx34GEmZA73giH rF9iLt6BEK3b0rgEenUjEKDOkJOlncdt09pcclG9L1a9wwXN7Kn500JPK7y8oNsw/IC2 IOkg== X-Received: by 10.180.11.139 with SMTP id q11mr226093wib.13.1435863232047; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.181.23.195 with SMTP id ic3ls1301161wid.49.canary; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.89.231 with SMTP id br7mr5393874wib.0.1435863230982; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si360199wiz.0.2015.07.02.11.53.50 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f; Received: by mail-wi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id l6so205812241wiw.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.75.78 with SMTP id a14mr20056407wiw.68.1435863230832; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.157.16 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:53:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <559576DF.3050000@lojban.org> References: <5096706.OK0AdRCTgh@caracal> <5568903.UmGzmqQki9@caracal> <3746036.DDyrWyEgf1@caracal> <559576DF.3050000@lojban.org> From: Michael Turniansky Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 14:53:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] jbonunsla - location To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0438eb9dd1e68b0519e8f515 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d0438eb9dd1e68b0519e8f515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, it's true that ISO-8601 set the standard as Monday as first day, but that's not culturally neutral. As you will see in the Wikipedia article on Week: SystemFirst day of weekFirst week of year containsCan also be last week of previous yearUsed by/inISO-8601Monday 4 January1st Thursday4=E2=80=937 days of yearnoEU and most of other European = countries (Islamic)Saturday 1 January1st Friday1=E2=80=937 days of yearyesMuch of the Middle East(North American)Sun= day 1 January1st Saturday1=E2=80=937 days= of year yesCanada, USA, China, Japan, Israel, most of Latin America Some languages reflect a Sunday-first order: "the Portuguese word for Monday is *segunda-feira* and the Greek [liturgical] word is *=CE=94=CE=B5= =CF=85=CF=84=CE=AD=CF=81=CE=B1* " *devt=C3=A9ra*" (second in order). Likewise the Hebrew name for Monday is *yom-sheni* (=D7= =99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=A9=D7=A0=D7=99)." So why is Monday first in Europe? This basically reflects the influence of Xtianity, aiming to align Sunday ("The Lord's Day") as the seventh day of the week so that the Ten Commandments would seem to refer to Sunday as the Sabbath, not Saturday as it was understood to be for centuries (although again, even languages like Spanish and Portuguese reveal the original, because they call Saturday s=C3=A1bado) So, to reiterate, billions of non-Xtian people refer to other-than-Monday as the first day of the week. It's only the decidedly non-culturally-neutral Europe that does. It's hardly universal. Bob writes: > Any particular religion should not enter into the consideration at all. Exactly. But it does, by its very nature. Numbering days is inherently fraught with religious overtones. Coloring them is not. And it's not just theoretic. When you call Sunday zeldei, it does indeed cause a visceral reaction in me ( My "a'unaisaire'e" in my previous letter was not merely hyperbole) On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > On 6/29/2015 9:00 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> je'e .i ku'i ca lo nu so'a le me lu la'o gy Monday gy se cmene zo >> pavdei li'u bende cu pante keikuko na xusra lo du'u mi na kajde do lo >> si'o kulnu zaznalnu'i va'u ii >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Pierre Abbat > > wrote: >> >> On Friday, June 26, 2015 11:55:20 Michael Turniansky wrote: >> > We never really established it, but as I said in the original emai= l >> > proposing the the thing >> > >> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/ja_mbMiAt4A/aNdRhAb91aIJ) : >> > > I suggest for the sake of cultural neutrality, making the cycle >> start >> > > >> > > so that zirdei be Tuesday, since I was born on Tuesday and purpl= e >> is >> > > my favorite color. If I was culturally un-neutral, I'd say xunda= y >> [sic] is >> > > Sunday, since that's the "start" for both cycles.. >> > >> > Since these words never entered the dictionary, or had any other >> > officialness, I used my suggestion and start with purple on >> tuesday... >> >> Setting zirdei to Tuesday because that's your favorite color and >> birthdate is >> like making a gismu for "smoot". Lots of distances all over the >> world are >> measured in meters. Many distances (largely in the air) are measured >> in feet. >> Only one thing (a certain bridge) is measured in smoots. >> >> Both of us agree that the first day is Sunday (and that, for religio= us >> purposes, the week starts at the previous sunset), so I'm going to >> enter them >> with xundei being Sunday. >> > > I haven't been following this discussion, so why are people discussing > concocting a new system for days of the week? The original method just > attached a number for the day. I get confused these days from not using > Lojban enough, but I think we dealt with the issue of where to start by > allowing Sunday to be zero-day (and therefore first) or seven-day (and > therefore last). The international standard is that Monday is the first > day of the week. > > http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/days/ > > Any particular religion should not enter into the consideration at all. > See the definition of jeftu which even allows for the possibility of > other-than-seven day weeks, though the default should probably be the > international standard. > > Doing anything with colors or other oddball schemes is a likely to succee= d > as attempts to redo the months of the year, or clock times. > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d0438eb9dd1e68b0519e8f515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bob, it's true that ISO-8601 set the sta= ndard as Monday as first day, but that's not culturally neutral.=C2=A0 = As you will see in the Wikipedia article on Week:

SystemFirst day of weekFirst week of year contains= Can also be last week of = previous yearUsed by/inISO-8601Monda= y4 January1st Thursday4=E2=80=937 days of yearnoEU and most of other E= uropean countries(Islamic)Saturday= 1 January1st Friday= 1=E2=80=937 days of year= yesMuch of the Middle East(North American)Sunday1 January1st Sat= urday1=E2=80=937 days of= yearyesCanada, USA, China, Japan, Israel, most of Latin America

= =C2=A0 Some languages reflect a Sunday-first orde= r: "the Portuguese word for M= onday is=C2=A0segunda-feira=C2=A0and the Greek [liturgical] = word is=C2=A0=CE=94=CE=B5=CF= =85=CF=84=CE=AD=CF=81=CE=B1=C2= =A0"devt=C3=A9ra" (second in order). Likewise the= =C2=A0
Hebrew=C2=A0name for Monday is=C2=A0yom-sheni=C2=A0(=D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=A9=D7=A0=D7=99)."

=C2=A0 So why is Monday first in Europe?=C2=A0 T= his basically reflects the influence of Xtianity, aiming to align Sunday (&= quot;The Lord's Day") as the seventh day of the week so that the T= en Commandments would seem to refer to Sunday as the Sabbath, not Saturday = as it was understood to be for centuries (although again, even languages li= ke Spanish and Portuguese reveal the original, because they call Saturday= =C2=A0s=C3=A1bado)

=C2=A0 So,= to reiterate, billions of non-Xtian people refer to other-than-Monday as t= he first day of the week.=C2=A0 It's only the decidedly non-culturally-= neutral Europe that does.=C2=A0 It's hardly universal.
Bob writes:
Any = particular religion should not enter into the consideration at all.=C2=A0= =C2=A0
=C2=A0 Exactly.=C2=A0 But it does, by its ve= ry nature.

=C2=A0 Numbering days is inherently fra= ught with religious overtones.=C2=A0 Coloring them is not.=C2=A0 And it'= ;s not just theoretic.=C2=A0 When you call Sunday zeldei, it does indeed ca= use a visceral reaction in me ( My "a'unaisaire'e" in my previous letter was not merely= hyperbole)
<= br>

O= n Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org><= /span> wrote:
On 6/29/2015 9:00 AM, Mi= chael Turniansky wrote:
je'e .i ku'i ca lo nu so'a le me lu la'o gy Monday gy=C2=A0= se cmene zo
pavdei li'u bende cu pante keikuko na xusra lo du'u mi na kajde do = lo
si'o kulnu zaznalnu'i va'u ii

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org
<mailto:phma@bezi= topo.org>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Friday, June 26, 2015 11:55:20 Michael Turniansky wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We never really established it, but as I said in the ori= ginal email
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > proposing the the thing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >https://groups.goog= le.com/d/msg/lojban/ja_mbMiAt4A/aNdRhAb91aIJ) :
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 I suggest for the sake of cultural neutrality= , making the cycle start
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > so that zirdei be Tuesday, since I was born on Tues= day and purple is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > my favorite color. If I was culturally un-neutral, = I'd say xunday [sic] is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Sunday, since that's the "start" for = both cycles..
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Since these words never entered the dictiona= ry, or had any other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > officialness, I used my suggestion and start with purple= on tuesday...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Setting zirdei to Tuesday because that's your favorite co= lor and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 birthdate is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 like making a gismu for "smoot". Lots of distances = all over the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 world are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 measured in meters. Many distances (largely in the air) are m= easured
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in feet.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only one thing (a certain bridge) is measured in smoots.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Both of us agree that the first day is Sunday (and that, for = religious
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 purposes, the week starts at the previous sunset), so I'm= going to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 enter them
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with xundei being Sunday.

I haven't been following this discussion, so why are people discussing = concocting a new system for days of the week?=C2=A0 The original method jus= t attached a number for the day. I get confused these days from not using L= ojban enough, but I think we dealt with the issue of where to start by allo= wing Sunday to be zero-day (and therefore first) or seven-day (and therefor= e last).=C2=A0 The international standard is that Monday is the first day o= f the week.

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/days/

Any particular religion should not enter into the consideration at all.=C2= =A0 See the definition of jeftu which even allows for the possibility of ot= her-than-seven day weeks, though the default should probably be the interna= tional standard.

Doing anything with colors or other oddball schemes is a likely to succeed = as attempts to redo the months of the year, or clock times.

lojbab


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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