Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 21:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Spheniscine (la zipcpi)" <spheniscine@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <f8764ba9-e872-475e-95fb-6b3c7929ea76@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban] {nai} vs {ne'e}: simple vs polar negation
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*The problem:*
{nai} is currently overloaded, especially with UI and COI. For some of 
these, (e.g. da'i, pe'a) it represents merely simple negation (na'e-X, 
"not-X"), while for others (like the familiar {ui}), it actually represents 
polar negation (to'e-X, "opposite-of-X"). 

And then there are the really oddball ones, like {ba'a}, where the 
{ja'ai-cu'i-nai} scale is defined with respect to time, rather than scalar 
strength. In particular, is {ba'asai} "I strongly expect", or "I expect in 
the far-ish future"?

Furthermore, {nai} being to'e-X rather than na'e-X in these cases, makes it 
hard to express na'e-X. {uipei} = "Are you happy?" - how to express "No" 
without implying "sad"? {uicu'i} isn't actually defined, and {cu'i} is 
actually associated with {no'e} rather than {na'e}

The thing though, is that {nai} practically means {na'e} in pretty much all 
other cases that don't involve UI and COI. Sumtcita, for example, {punai} = 
{na'e pu} / {fi'o na xo'i pu}. Likewise, the most natural interpretation of 
{barda nai} and {mlatu nai} is {na'e barda} and {na'e mlatu}.

There's also the {ju'ocu'i} problem: there is a trend to use {ju'onai} over 
it just to mean {na'e birti}, rather than the {to'e birti} as officially 
defined. (The common opinion is that the {to'e birti} sense can often just 
be {ju'o naku})

*The proposal:*
{ne'e} is an experimental cmavo first defined by Gleki, that is essentially 
the CAI form of {to'e}. (I have used it for the compound {rone'e} ("least 
contextually possible number"; usually zero, but could be negative on 
scales like Celsius, or even positive on scales like SAT scores), and also 
defined {u'ene'e} to give the {u'e}-scale a third value ("disappointment"), 
first proposed by Curtis as {uaunai}). Thus, the proposal is to essentially 
promote {ne'e} over {nai} in all contexts where the meaning is closer to 
{to'e} than {na'e}. Thus, {uine'e} for "sadness", while {uinai} would just 
be "not happy"

*Potential issues:*
It might be difficult to essentially change the meaning of {uinai} etc. 
overnight. It might, however, be possible to do it gradually; first promote 
{uine'e} over {uinai}, then redefine {uinai} after this usage becomes 
widespread. 

Unfortunately, {ne'e} is two syllables to {nai}'s one, which might make 
retard this process. (There is a cekitaujau 
<http://mw.lojban.org/papri/ce_ki_tau_jau> proposal to swap it with {tei})

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><b>The problem:</b><div>{nai} is currently overloaded, esp=
ecially with UI and COI. For some of these, (e.g. da&#39;i, pe&#39;a) it re=
presents merely simple negation (na&#39;e-X, &quot;not-X&quot;), while for =
others (like the familiar {ui}), it actually represents polar negation (to&=
#39;e-X, &quot;opposite-of-X&quot;).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And the=
n there are the really oddball ones, like {ba&#39;a}, where the {ja&#39;ai-=
cu&#39;i-nai} scale is defined with respect to time, rather than scalar str=
ength. In particular, is {ba&#39;asai} &quot;I strongly expect&quot;, or &q=
uot;I expect in the far-ish future&quot;?</div><div><br></div><div>Furtherm=
ore, {nai} being to&#39;e-X rather than na&#39;e-X in these cases, makes it=
 hard to express na&#39;e-X. {uipei} =3D &quot;Are you happy?&quot; - how t=
o express &quot;No&quot; without implying &quot;sad&quot;? {uicu&#39;i} isn=
&#39;t actually defined, and {cu&#39;i} is actually associated with {no&#39=
;e} rather than {na&#39;e}</div><div><br></div><div>The thing though, is th=
at {nai} practically means {na&#39;e} in pretty much all other cases that d=
on&#39;t involve UI and COI. Sumtcita, for example, {punai} =3D {na&#39;e p=
u} / {fi&#39;o na xo&#39;i pu}. Likewise, the most natural interpretation o=
f {barda nai} and {mlatu nai} is {na&#39;e barda} and {na&#39;e mlatu}.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>There&#39;s also the {ju&#39;ocu&#39;i} problem: ther=
e is a trend to use {ju&#39;onai} over it just to mean {na&#39;e birti}, ra=
ther than the {to&#39;e birti} as officially defined. (The common opinion i=
s that the {to&#39;e birti} sense can often just be {ju&#39;o naku})</div><=
div><br></div><div><b>The proposal:</b></div><div>{ne&#39;e} is an experime=
ntal cmavo first defined by Gleki, that is essentially the CAI form of {to&=
#39;e}. (I have used it for the compound {rone&#39;e} (&quot;least contextu=
ally possible number&quot;; usually zero, but could be negative on scales l=
ike Celsius, or even positive on scales like SAT scores), and also defined =
{u&#39;ene&#39;e} to give the {u&#39;e}-scale a third value (&quot;disappoi=
ntment&quot;), first proposed by Curtis as {uaunai}). Thus, the proposal is=
 to essentially promote {ne&#39;e} over {nai} in all contexts where the mea=
ning is closer to {to&#39;e} than {na&#39;e}. Thus, {uine&#39;e} for &quot;=
sadness&quot;, while {uinai} would just be &quot;not happy&quot;</div><div>=
<br></div><div><b>Potential issues:</b></div><div>It might be difficult to =
essentially change the meaning of {uinai} etc. overnight. It might, however=
, be possible to do it gradually; first promote {uine&#39;e} over {uinai}, =
then redefine {uinai} after this usage becomes widespread.=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Unfortunately, {ne&#39;e} is two syllables to {nai}&#39;s on=
e, which might make retard this process. (There is a <a href=3D"http://mw.l=
ojban.org/papri/ce_ki_tau_jau">cekitaujau</a>=C2=A0proposal to swap it with=
 {tei})</div></div>

<p></p>

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