Received: from mail-la0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:32845) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZG3i6-0001Zb-5z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:58 -0700 Received: by lagw2 with SMTP id w2sf41127189lag.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=2qkko4iilFNDOil/8HdlCdVqo83BHCW8zFcC4PehC/o=; b=lTQ6bmV7jzQ4/eA6a5x93neuvX/HI+036pyLvBJK4l6Rl/oOsA/KrlAj4zE5UK6NlF YYq/uGdmVDFkMtV1Is6uQBS6qy2lwEuscBhYREPW+iuFCbXAG2tA+FYDLm5QT3M85HwP eKxNSYBmMycMEVLFyerkl9FUH23QdWQZMNkCzobVY49D8tTnMhPihiOKBeajTO2fh+Wd CSRadqTVnI1m8cH+5Lp4Esbpqu2ierH80fGX6vkALlOyqOnDl2S3Y2C7Hkt6zk9OiktA +qAMNVo+U7dnhSC5HvpxCw0f7mwjI4HZA03d/D6EiSpvbhZPpo+aGhFAViGW+LZ9zIvA 4ERw== X-Received: by 10.152.37.162 with SMTP id z2mr10543laj.42.1437132099047; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.185.67 with SMTP id fa3ls451343lac.76.gmail; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.42.236 with SMTP id r12mr7256076lbl.2.1437132098256; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bk2si241474wib.1.2015.07.17.04.21.38 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::229; Received: by mail-wi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id ud3so39940004wib.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.211.10 with SMTP id my10mr15850326wic.41.1437132098126; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:21:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:20:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 14:20:58 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {nai} vs {ne'e}: simple vs polar negation To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c26bc6344a85051b106478 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c26bc6344a85051b106478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-07-17 7:36 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine (la zipcpi) : > *The problem:* > {nai} is currently overloaded, especially with UI and COI. For some of > these, (e.g. da'i, pe'a) it represents merely simple negation (na'e-X, > "not-X"), while for others (like the familiar {ui}), it actually represents > polar negation (to'e-X, "opposite-of-X"). > I don't see how for {da'i} and {pe'a} {nai} doesn't represent the opposite part of the scale. > And then there are the really oddball ones, like {ba'a}, where the > {ja'ai-cu'i-nai} scale is defined with respect to time, rather than scalar > strength. > In particular, is {ba'asai} "I strongly expect", or "I expect in the > far-ish future"? > {ba'a} scale like all scales represents a scale no matter whether it's about time or not. Compare {ui} scale where an emotion is slowly changing from one into another. Compare {ba'a} scale where the information is slowly changing from being not yet experienced to already experienced. {uisai} is strong attitude. {ba'asai} is strong attitude. There is no difference in concepts of these two. If you don't like it then you don't use this or that word and use other words or create new words. > Furthermore, {nai} being to'e-X rather than na'e-X in these cases, makes > it hard to express na'e-X. > That's because you specify your own attitude. Attitudinals are very special words (as e.g. opposed to purely logical adverbs like {fi'o gleki}. {uipei} = "Are you happy?" - how to express "No" without implying "sad"? > You specify what you feel. > {uicu'i} isn't actually defined, and {cu'i} is actually associated with > {no'e} rather than {na'e} > > The thing though, is that {nai} practically means {na'e} in pretty much > all other cases that don't involve UI and COI. Sumtcita, for example, > {punai} = {na'e pu} / {fi'o na xo'i pu}. Likewise, the most natural > interpretation of {barda nai} and {mlatu nai} is {na'e barda} and {na'e > mlatu}. > That's because those are different words with different scales. > There's also the {ju'ocu'i} problem: there is a trend to use {ju'onai} > over it just to mean {na'e birti}, rather than the {to'e birti} as > officially defined. (The common opinion is that the {to'e birti} sense can > often just be {ju'o naku}) > > *The proposal:* > {ne'e} is an experimental cmavo first defined by Gleki, that is > essentially the CAI form of {to'e}. (I have used it for the compound > {rone'e} ("least contextually possible number"; usually zero, but could be > negative on scales like Celsius, or even positive on scales like SAT > scores), and also defined {u'ene'e} to give the {u'e}-scale a third value > ("disappointment"), first proposed by Curtis as {uaunai}). Thus, the > proposal is to essentially promote {ne'e} over {nai} in all contexts where > the meaning is closer to {to'e} than {na'e}. Thus, {uine'e} for "sadness", > while {uinai} would just be "not happy" > > *Potential issues:* > It might be difficult to essentially change the meaning of {uinai} etc. > overnight. It might, however, be possible to do it gradually; first promote > {uine'e} over {uinai}, then redefine {uinai} after this usage becomes > widespread. > or just don't use attitudinals if you find them problematic. {sei na'e gleki} etc. are fine. > > Unfortunately, {ne'e} is two syllables to {nai}'s one, which might make > retard this process. (There is a cekitaujau > proposal to swap it with {tei}) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c26bc6344a85051b106478 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-07-17 7:36 GMT+03:00 Spheniscine (la zipcpi) <= ;spheniscine@gma= il.com>:
The problem:=
{nai} is currently overloaded, especially with UI and COI. For som= e of these, (e.g. da'i, pe'a) it represents merely simple negation = (na'e-X, "not-X"), while for others (like the familiar {ui}),= it actually represents polar negation (to'e-X, "opposite-of-X&quo= t;).=C2=A0

I don't see how = for {da'i} and {pe'a} =C2=A0{nai} doesn't represent the opposit= e part of the scale.

=

And then there are the really oddball ones, like {ba= 9;a}, where the {ja'ai-cu'i-nai} scale is defined with respect to t= ime, rather than scalar strength.=C2=A0
In particular, is {ba'asai} "I strong= ly expect", or "I expect in the far-ish future"?
=

{ba'a} scale like all scales represent= s a scale no matter whether it's about time or not.

Compare {ui} scale where an emotion is slowly changing from one into = another.
Compare {ba'a} scale where the information is slowly= changing from being not yet experienced to already experienced.
= {uisai} is strong attitude.
{ba'asai} is strong attitude.
=

There is no difference in concepts of these two. = If you don't like it then you don't use this or that word and use o= ther words or create new words.


Furthermore, {nai} being to'e-X rather t= han na'e-X in these cases, makes it hard to express na'e-X.

That's because you specify your ow= n attitude. Attitudinals are very special words (as e.g. opposed to purely = logical adverbs like {fi'o gleki}.

{uipei} =3D "Are you happy?" - how to exp= ress "No" without implying "sad"?

You specify what you feel.
=C2=A0
{uicu'i} isn't actually define= d, and {cu'i} is actually associated with {no'e} rather than {na= 9;e}

The thing though, is that {nai} practically m= eans {na'e} in pretty much all other cases that don't involve UI an= d COI. Sumtcita, for example, {punai} =3D {na'e pu} / {fi'o na xo&#= 39;i pu}. Likewise, the most natural interpretation of {barda nai} and {mla= tu nai} is {na'e barda} and {na'e mlatu}.
<= div>
That's because =C2=A0those are different words with = different scales.


There's also the {ju'ocu'i} problem: there is = a trend to use {ju'onai} over it just to mean {na'e birti}, rather = than the {to'e birti} as officially defined. (The common opinion is tha= t the {to'e birti} sense can often just be {ju'o naku})
<= br>
The proposal:
{ne'e} is an experimental = cmavo first defined by Gleki, that is essentially the CAI form of {to'e= }. (I have used it for the compound {rone'e} ("least contextually = possible number"; usually zero, but could be negative on scales like C= elsius, or even positive on scales like SAT scores), and also defined {u= 9;ene'e} to give the {u'e}-scale a third value ("disappointmen= t"), first proposed by Curtis as {uaunai}). Thus, the proposal is to e= ssentially promote {ne'e} over {nai} in all contexts where the meaning = is closer to {to'e} than {na'e}. Thus, {uine'e} for "sadne= ss", while {uinai} would just be "not happy"

<= /div>
Potential issues:
It might be difficult to essen= tially change the meaning of {uinai} etc. overnight. It might, however, be = possible to do it gradually; first promote {uine'e} over {uinai}, then = redefine {uinai} after this usage becomes widespread.=C2=A0

or just don't use attitudinals if you find= them problematic.
{sei na'e gleki} etc. are fine.
= =C2=A0

Unfortuna= tely, {ne'e} is two syllables to {nai}'s one, which might make reta= rd this process. (There is a cekitaujau=C2=A0proposal to swap it with {tei}= )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c26bc6344a85051b106478--