Received: from mail-ig0-f184.google.com ([209.85.213.184]:33665) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZH7Wv-0004Vj-H0 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 02:38:41 -0700 Received: by igts8 with SMTP id s8sf36189867igt.0 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 02:38:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ONO1nebCFb/6F+FGxUAX5IpzH5yB1X9mI12a8td/duA=; b=XwqmZG6SJbpnfMjdAYvVc+b/YpKFrgGUwCvs3AfGiK3QvMD+ygLDlK/Q9Ahx9fH3ns IAm5/SMe9xBw+bhqMcNw55ERVTcHyjPuZ0uYYX/r5swMT+cTeX85WsN6DxZzxHGeoj+l NeJ8+BF1ZS5oejMwAxkUfMCjjvCqScQCdpnbCaP2hSARMlKRzEvalrOU2sQRPfGAJO2C ZOunXl+zev+D6Is5woAMGwRVgJl4aePpNIIfT0xHkqYWiJMw0FQCw7z2xxlCtNjjNP3b J+eZynd+Se5G9n3AZcQeITn02+ft5L3JYIb1F/H8+xGN/qndxDl8VsjI6E1JMoHORHNp djdg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ONO1nebCFb/6F+FGxUAX5IpzH5yB1X9mI12a8td/duA=; b=fWTw70wfnfcyRcnWxSLRP3ObsYhj7aPFjZ2+wC9WQX4AZikkd056/mwkxtv3vf+PvQ 6cDG7bLRX1tZbbdKsNu2Fu1Vh4dXfWg2M4PS110yUY7uBgStPL3ai2KXYofQTjd5yBv/ QcFbAreGjXxMdDWjp2TjgGdxiIHMJPP1b0fqk4SjYJ24+Qy69wCaJaRnHVcE7jGwmCNK LgCOkyv5nLX8NVkhUVm1Z6HrqD3J9zlbgHgopRb5MiZA4tFDGMJLdRl3LK7u7BLXfJhN m5nJp1GKoFh+jyRmdx3JbDpDnfgXG4QQDPJxQhhfne7qzYoPiTyLzXYFx7S5CJivRkwe 20sw== X-Received: by 10.140.32.74 with SMTP id g68mr453352qgg.37.1437385111449; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 02:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.36.170 with SMTP id p39ls2969744qgp.26.gmail; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 02:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.30.197 with SMTP id d63mr456674qgd.12.1437385111056; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 02:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 02:38:30 -0700 (PDT) From: la durka To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <5e6d0b55-9f5a-48ae-9913-1bc34856b7ee@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {tu'e...tu'u} in NU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_81_19013887.1437385110463" X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_81_19013887.1437385110463 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_82_883654767.1437385110467" ------=_Part_82_883654767.1437385110467 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El jueves, 16 de julio de 2015, 23:58:31 (UTC+2), xorxes escribi=C3=B3: > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Alex Burka > wrote: > >> So, to the question of that {gu} and {go} mean with more than 2=20 >> arguments, we kind of find ourselves with tradeoff between logic and eas= e=20 >> of use. >> >> First I get nervous extending them to >2-ary at all, since it becomes=20 >> harder to reason about the negations ({gonai X gi Y} is XOR, but {gonai = X=20 >> gi Y gi Z} is not, it's something strange instead -- and nobody can do= =20 >> truth tables in their head, even fluent speakers). >> >> The interpretations you list are undoubtedly useful (particularly the=20 >> "which one out of these X alternatives"-connective is often asked for,= =20 >> > > "Which one(s) of the following" would be "ge'i ... gi ... gi ... gi ... "= ,=20 > right? > Eh, sort of, but that's a different question from "which exactly-one of=20 these?". Also, how on earth do you answer that ge'i-question with=20 connective words=E2=80=BD :) =20 > =20 > >> though there is a workable solution using {moi}). >> > e.g., {xo moi be ko'a ce'o ko'e ce'o ko'i}, though that still technically= =20 allows an answer like {pajere}. =20 > But they do not correspond to the mathematical interpretation. For=20 >> example, n-ary XOR is supposed to be true when an odd number of the=20 >> arguments are true, which is not obvious (or often useful in speech).=20 >> Changing this can cause difficulties with composition, for example logic= al=20 >> transformations like De Morgans' laws will not work.=20 >> > > The negation of "ga ... gi ... gi ..." is still "ge nai ... gi nai ... gi= =20 > nai ..." and viceversa. And "go ... gi ... gi ..." should be equivalent t= o=20 > "go nai ... gi nai ... gi nai ... ", but that means "go nai" can't mean= =20 > "one and only one of the following".=20 > > "Exactly one of", "all but exactly one of", "at least two of", etc should= =20 > be based on numerals (so that "ro" corresponds with "ge" and "su'o" with= =20 > "ga"). > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_82_883654767.1437385110467 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

El jueves, 16 de julio de 2015, 23:58:31 (UTC+2), xorxes escribi=C3= =B3:

=
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Alex Burka = <dur...@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
So, to the question of that {g= u} and {go} mean with more than 2 arguments, we kind of find ourselves with= tradeoff between logic and ease of use.

First I get nervous extendin= g them to >2-ary at all, since it becomes harder to reason about the neg= ations ({gonai X gi Y} is XOR, but {gonai X gi Y gi Z} is not, it's som= ething strange instead -- and nobody can do truth tables in their head, eve= n fluent speakers).

The interpretations you list are undoubtedly usef= ul (particularly the "which one out of these X alternatives"-conn= ective is often asked for,

&qu= ot;Which one(s) of the following" would be "ge'i ... gi ... g= i ... gi ... ", right?

Eh, sort of, but that's a different question from "which = exactly-one of these?". Also, how on earth do you answer that ge'i= -question with connective words=E2=80=BD :)
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
though there is a worka= ble solution using {moi}).

e.g., {xo moi be ko'a ce'o ko'e ce&#= 39;o ko'i}, though that still technically allows an answer like {pajere= }.
=C2=A0
=
But t= hey do not correspond to the mathematical interpretation. For example, n-ar= y XOR is supposed to be true when an odd number of the arguments are true, = which is not obvious (or often useful in speech). Changing this can cause d= ifficulties with composition, for example logical transformations like De M= organs' laws will not work.

The negation of "ga ... gi ... gi ..." is still "ge nai ..= . gi nai ... gi nai ..." and viceversa. And "go ... gi ... gi ...= " should be equivalent to "go nai ... gi nai ... gi nai ... "= ;, but that means "go nai" can't mean "one and only one = of the following".=C2=A0

"Exactly one of= ", "all but exactly one of", "at least two of", et= c should be based on numerals (so that "ro" corresponds with &quo= t;ge" and "su'o" with "ga").

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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