Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 23:44:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <f74f87f4-75be-4400-927c-0cf13f8a344a@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de>
References: <1c2a3b64-07b1-4023-a740-362deb17da34@googlegroups.com>
 <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_5903_743731323.1437461072984"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

------=_Part_5903_743731323.1437461072984
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_5904_652168401.1437461072991"

------=_Part_5904_652168401.1437461072991
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le lundi 20 juillet 2015 14:34:50 UTC, selpa'i a =C3=A9crit :
>
> la .guskant. cu cusku di'e=20
> > Which do you prefer:=20
> >=20
> > 1. keep the current situiation, and regard {soi} as an exception of=20
> > scope of terms;=20
> > 2. keep the current situiation, and let {soi} loose the power of=20
> > left-scope ({soi} becomes the same as {xoi});=20
> > 3. create a new grammatical property for {soi}, and keep {xoi} as it is=
;=20
> > 4. allow {soi}-clause become a "free", that has the same property as=20
> > {sei}-clause (easier than 3.);=20
> > 5. other.=20
>
> New-{soi} originally started out as a free modifier (before xoi became=20
> popular), but then I thought that being a term is more useful because it=
=20
> allows us to use it in termsets:=20
>
>    (A) mi ge lo xamsi soi cafne gi lo cmana soi to'e cafne cu klama=20
>        "I often go to the ocean, but rarely to the mountain."=20
>
> Such a construction used to be impossible before. However, now that=20
> {xoi} exists, it could easily replace {soi} in that sentence, and {soi}=
=20
> *could* go back to being a free modifier (option 4).=20
>
> I think this would depend on how much support {xoi} has (it has=20
> experimental cmavo form which might bother some people?). If {xoi} is=20
> going to become part of standard Lojban then I think option 4 works=20
> (sentence (A) needs to remain expressable somehow).=20
>
> I'd like to hear from other users of both {soi} and {xoi}.=20
>
> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o=20
>
>

je'e=20

In order to keep (A) in which {soi} is replaced by {xoi} be valid, new=20
selma'o XOI should be substituted for the new SOI so that {xoi}-clause be a=
=20
term.

new SOI will become almost the same as SEI. The difference is only the=20
bridi-tail (and pseudo-{zo'u} if {soi}-clause encloses a "subsentence").

Considering the simplicity of grammar and the advantage of new SOI compared=
=20
with SEI, it would be better to modify SEI so that it encloses a sentence,=
=20
and merge {soi} to selma'o SEI, though this change will require more=20
{se'u}.=20

Even if {sei} and {soi} are in the same selma'o, they can be semantically=
=20
different: {sei} will have the same scope as UI, while {soi} will have the=
=20
broadest scope over a sentence, and may take the "signified" of the=20
sentence with {ke'a} in the clause.

By the way, on the "new soi" page, "subsentence" is suggested in=20
{soi}-clause. Do you intend to use {zo'u} in {soi}-clause, or it simply=20
inherited the official grammar of NU/NOI? {zo'u} in NOI- or new SOI/XOI-=20
clauses may produce logical problem, and I want to avoid it if possible.=20
(la zantufa-0.2 allowed "statement" including {zo'u} in NOI-clause, but it=
=20
will be changed to "sentence" in the future version, and then {zo'u} in=20
NOI-clause will be banned.)

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_5904_652168401.1437461072991
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>Le lundi 20 juillet 2015 14:34:50 UTC, selpa&#39;i a =C3=A9crit=C2=
=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex=
;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la .guskant. cu cusku di&#=
39;e
<br>&gt; Which do you prefer:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; 1. keep the current situiation, and regard {soi} as an exception o=
f
<br>&gt; scope of terms;
<br>&gt; 2. keep the current situiation, and let {soi} loose the power of
<br>&gt; left-scope ({soi} becomes the same as {xoi});
<br>&gt; 3. create a new grammatical property for {soi}, and keep {xoi} as =
it is;
<br>&gt; 4. allow {soi}-clause become a &quot;free&quot;, that has the same=
 property as
<br>&gt; {sei}-clause (easier than 3.);
<br>&gt; 5. other.
<br>
<br>New-{soi} originally started out as a free modifier (before xoi became=
=20
<br>popular), but then I thought that being a term is more useful because i=
t=20
<br>allows us to use it in termsets:
<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(A) mi ge lo xamsi soi cafne gi lo cmana soi to&#39;e cafn=
e cu klama
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;I often go to the ocean, but rarely to=
 the mountain.&quot;
<br>
<br>Such a construction used to be impossible before. However, now that=20
<br>{xoi} exists, it could easily replace {soi} in that sentence, and {soi}=
=20
<br>*could* go back to being a free modifier (option 4).
<br>
<br>I think this would depend on how much support {xoi} has (it has=20
<br>experimental cmavo form which might bother some people?). If {xoi} is=
=20
<br>going to become part of standard Lojban then I think option 4 works=20
<br>(sentence (A) needs to remain expressable somehow).
<br>
<br>I&#39;d like to hear from other users of both {soi} and {xoi}.
<br>
<br>mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i mu&#39;o
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>je&#39;e=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>In order to keep (A) in which {soi} is replaced by {xoi} b=
e valid, new selma&#39;o XOI should be substituted for the new SOI so that =
{xoi}-clause be a term.</div><div><br></div><div>new SOI will become almost=
 the same as SEI. The difference is only the bridi-tail (and pseudo-{zo&#39=
;u} if {soi}-clause encloses a &quot;subsentence&quot;).</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Considering the simplicity of grammar and the advantage of new SOI c=
ompared with SEI, it would be better to modify SEI so that it encloses a se=
ntence, and merge {soi} to selma&#39;o SEI, though this change will require=
 more {se&#39;u}.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Even if {sei} and {soi} ar=
e in the same selma&#39;o, they can be semantically different: {sei} will h=
ave the same scope as UI, while {soi} will have the broadest scope over a s=
entence, and may take the &quot;signified&quot; of the sentence with {ke=
9;a} in the clause.</div><div><br></div><div>By the way, on the &quot;new s=
oi&quot; page, &quot;subsentence&quot; is suggested in {soi}-clause. Do you=
 intend to use {zo&#39;u} in {soi}-clause, or it simply inherited the offic=
ial grammar of NU/NOI? {zo&#39;u} in NOI- or new SOI/XOI- clauses may produ=
ce logical problem, and I want to avoid it if possible. (la zantufa-0.2 all=
owed &quot;statement&quot; including {zo&#39;u} in NOI-clause, but it will =
be changed to &quot;sentence&quot; in the future version, and then {zo&#39;=
u} in NOI-clause will be banned.)</div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_5904_652168401.1437461072991--
------=_Part_5903_743731323.1437461072984--