Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:51:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: la durka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] Re: xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause
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To be honest, I don't see a big problem with #1. We don't usually claim=20
that everything in the same selma'o has the same scoping implications --=20
think about KOhA. And we can't even claim it for terms -- {ca da} is a=20
scoping term while {lo broda} is not. (Please correct me if I am abusing=20
the term "term".)

#2 seems awkward because {soi} would then be redundant, so what's the=20
point. #3 seems awkward because I'm not sure how this new grammatical=20
category would look, but it seems like it'd be quite similar to a term, so=
=20
it would "infect" a lot of grammar rules.

#4 would work too, I think.

- mu'o mi'e durkavore

El lunes, 20 de julio de 2015, 16:09:59 (UTC+2), guskant escribi=C3=B3:
>
> The current highest score of {xoi} (or {fi'oi})=20
>
> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/xoi
>
> and new {soi}=20
>
> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/new_soi
>
> as bridi relative clause are defined with assertion about their (semantic=
)=20
> scope.
>
> xoi:
> Right-scoping adverbial clause: encloses a bridi and turns it into an=20
> adverbial term; the antecedent (ke'a) of the enclosed bridi stands for th=
e=20
> outer bridi {lo su'u no'a ku} (the bridi in which this xoi term appears),=
=20
> including all the other adverbial terms (tags...) within this bridi locat=
ed=20
> on the right of this xoi term (rightward scope).
>
> soi:
> soi terms always have top-scope, meaning they scope over any quantifiers,=
=20
> negations or tenses that precede them. When multiple soi are used in the=
=20
> same bridi, they are understood to have equal scope.
>
> {xoi} and new {soi} are currently in selma'o SOI of la ilmentufa, and=20
> SOI_clause is treated as tag_term:
>
> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg
>
> tag_term =3D expr:((!gek tag free* (sumti / KU_elidible free*) / NA_claus=
e=20
> free* KU_clause free* / !gek !ek !joik_jek !gihek NA_clause free*=20
>  KU_elidible free* / SOI_clause free* subsentence SEhU_elidible free*)=20
> (joik_jek tag_term)*) {return _node("tag_term", expr);}
>
> Generally, Lojban terms have scope that spans over all the following term=
s=20
> in a sentence. The scope of terms is modified by a prenex of a statement.=
=20
> If {xoi}-clause and new {soi}-clause are defined as having scope, it shou=
ld=20
> not be a term. If they are defined as terms, {xoi} has harmony with scope=
=20
> of other terms, but {soi} becomes an exception of scope of terms, otherwi=
se=20
> loses its power as left-scope.=20
>
> Which do you prefer:
>
> 1. keep the current situiation, and regard {soi} as an exception of scope=
=20
> of terms;
> 2. keep the current situiation, and let {soi} loose the power of=20
> left-scope ({soi} becomes the same as {xoi});
> 3. create a new grammatical property for {soi}, and keep {xoi} as it is;
> 4. allow {soi}-clause become a "free", that has the same property as=20
> {sei}-clause (easier than 3.);
> 5. other.
>
> re'i
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">To be honest, I don&#39;t see a big problem with #1. We do=
n&#39;t usually claim that everything in the same selma&#39;o has the same =
scoping implications -- think about KOhA. And we can&#39;t even claim it fo=
r terms -- {ca da} is a scoping term while {lo broda} is not. (Please corre=
ct me if I am abusing the term &quot;term&quot;.)<div><br></div><div>#2 see=
ms awkward because {soi} would then be redundant, so what&#39;s the point. =
#3 seems awkward because I&#39;m not sure how this new grammatical category=
 would look, but it seems like it&#39;d be quite similar to a term, so it w=
ould &quot;infect&quot; a lot of grammar rules.</div><div><br></div><div>#4=
 would work too, I think.</div><div><br></div><div>- mu&#39;o mi&#39;e durk=
avore<br><br>El lunes, 20 de julio de 2015, 16:09:59 (UTC+2), guskant escri=
bi=C3=B3:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: =
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
>The current highest score of {xoi} (or {fi&#39;oi})=C2=A0<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><a href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/xoi" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com=
/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fjbovlaste.lojban.org%2Fdict%2Fxoi\46sa\75D\46sntz\075=
1\46usg\75AFQjCNEKisJ2E6QY9m48bKWr0RHx__qhZw&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"=
this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fjbovlaste.lojba=
n.org%2Fdict%2Fxoi\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEKisJ2E6QY9m48bKWr0RH=
x__qhZw&#39;;return true;">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/xoi</a></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>and new {soi}=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"h=
ttp://mw.lojban.org/papri/new_soi" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmou=
sedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmw.lo=
jban.org%2Fpapri%2Fnew_soi\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEicoy_Zd5LMfu=
Zyb0t56xxn3URpA&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.g=
oogle.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2Fpapri%2Fnew_soi\46sa\75D\46s=
ntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEicoy_Zd5LMfuZyb0t56xxn3URpA&#39;;return true;">http=
://mw.lojban.org/papri/new_soi</a></div><div><br></div><div>as bridi relati=
ve clause are defined with assertion about their (semantic) scope.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>xoi:</div><div>Right-scoping adverbial clause: encloses a =
bridi and turns it into an adverbial term; the antecedent (ke&#39;a) of the=
 enclosed bridi stands for the outer bridi {lo su&#39;u no&#39;a ku} (the b=
ridi in which this xoi term appears), including all the other adverbial ter=
ms (tags...) within this bridi located on the right of this xoi term (right=
ward scope).</div><div><br></div><div>soi:</div><div>soi terms always have =
top-scope, meaning they scope over any quantifiers, negations or tenses tha=
t precede them. When multiple soi are used in the same bridi, they are unde=
rstood to have equal scope.</div><div><br></div><div>{xoi} and new {soi} ar=
e currently in selma&#39;o SOI of la ilmentufa, and SOI_clause is treated a=
s tag_term:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/extens=
ions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmous=
edown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmw.loj=
ban.org%2Fextensions%2Filmentufa%2Fcamxes-exp.js.peg\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\4=
6usg\75AFQjCNFRgZuS6n8GCvqCik4IUEfrtog9CQ&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"thi=
s.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2Fex=
tensions%2Filmentufa%2Fcamxes-exp.js.peg\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjC=
NFRgZuS6n8GCvqCik4IUEfrtog9CQ&#39;;return true;">http://mw.lojban.org/exten=
sions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg</a></div><div><br></div><div>tag_term =3D=
 expr:((!gek tag free* (sumti / KU_elidible free*) / NA_clause free* KU_cla=
use free* / !gek !ek !joik_jek !gihek NA_clause free* =C2=A0KU_elidible fre=
e* / SOI_clause free* subsentence SEhU_elidible free*) (joik_jek tag_term)*=
) {return _node(&quot;tag_term&quot;, expr);}</div><div><br></div><div>Gene=
rally, Lojban terms have scope that spans over all the following terms in a=
 sentence. The scope of terms is modified by a prenex of a statement. If {x=
oi}-clause and new {soi}-clause are defined as having scope, it should not =
be a term. If they are defined as terms, {xoi} has harmony with scope of ot=
her terms, but {soi} becomes an exception of scope of terms, otherwise lose=
s its power as left-scope.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Which do you pref=
er:</div><div><br></div><div>1. keep the current situiation, and regard {so=
i} as an exception of scope of terms;</div><div>2. keep the current situiat=
ion, and let {soi} loose the power of left-scope ({soi} becomes the same as=
 {xoi});</div><div>3. create a new grammatical property for {soi}, and keep=
 {xoi} as it is;</div><div>4. allow {soi}-clause become a &quot;free&quot;,=
 that has the same property as {sei}-clause (easier than 3.);</div><div>5. =
other.</div><div><br></div><div>re&#39;i</div><div><br></div></div></blockq=
uote></div></div>

<p></p>

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