Received: from mail-oi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]:33375) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZI3Qq-0005b6-Gb for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:28:16 -0700 Received: by oify129 with SMTP id y129sf63381337oif.0 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=v0/wBnnxNSqzJCxd3qKvoV1om9klrzE3fcvoAG8kZcU=; b=SFYlTswHJMbaeXHfaPX+p4CdNx5lBcIFEXtxc5oEtE/AVwCdJrEHVrCnT610grPP5c 5/yLm2taFovSdlxx/deYkpI094i1w/BxpELPLfIut1KEaNpVXNbJo00lU0kFVZfbKKsv /hx6ocn/D5pSO2Ct2x6kJXGwpOi+2na0oF/OGzPLAKGO+uB/2lia6TjHvSsPtyX/ChOm 3ROF4+Ag/Y8Vs+BPzaBD2voT0AAMuoq7gXE2ktZKVfNV4lv2FSt8xIRGn55ZYesULIEi Sj1H8dWBD5nG5V6Wd1RDPHy0GCzf+oWZxwyX60OLLzwvhk8SAnpqQ0Js68oNeiGotOPI UTUA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=v0/wBnnxNSqzJCxd3qKvoV1om9klrzE3fcvoAG8kZcU=; b=f2HluG43/meLMSGY3D4J9eCH5pIRYN50iHRiCElQVDQ+Tm7tzA6F9/GP+tsLikww79 OWitMhP1da0HP/GC0UX+Oc5warNjNHNCkYdJnD5BsI0RrtgJdNgHzdI90hdVMNMCAPdl bKiEbMGvxxlzPo+E96lESshU0gImxrHhuUpH8SiyeyeQx5kHIZVfJ9BtoM7lyplB7lUL ZXDI+/eymC3/1aBl65fDLgbd0CH/Inwkxpz09dW/G6kutUFtHOGOV7GDUH/oPhXkVIDz dhUQiOTbDhZZ7ZS4nlFy1k9uuwGhcWDOBnI0Eftg00jLY7tarS3Rfh8cl9I0BYJJO4/C QSTA== X-Received: by 10.50.43.133 with SMTP id w5mr227402igl.0.1437607686470; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.130.211 with SMTP id m80ls452651ioi.33.gmail; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.128.197 with SMTP id nq5mr582926igb.13.1437607686029; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:28:04 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: lojban Cc: jjllambias@gmail.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1c2a3b64-07b1-4023-a740-362deb17da34@googlegroups.com> <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de> <55AE1142.5090807@gmx.de> <8bab9435-5f94-4742-b74a-8cceac2c8a60@googlegroups.com> <55AE616F.9040509@gmx.de> <8e076a72-407a-498b-bb60-a2badff5e40f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_50_1561054571.1437607684576" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_50_1561054571.1437607684576 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_51_655882336.1437607684577" ------=_Part_51_655882336.1437607684577 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le mercredi 22 juillet 2015 22:15:52 UTC, xorxes a =C3=A9crit : > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:12 AM, guskant > wrote: > >> >> Relative clauses should care about the main bridi, because the bridi in= =20 >> relative clauses share their universe of discourse with the main bridi.= =20 >> About this example of fragment, I said only "logically meaningless", but= it=20 >> does not bring any problem by itself.=20 >> >> The problem occurs in the case that plural relative clauses appears with= =20 >> their own prenex, sometimes nested in logical connectives. Which prenex = is=20 >> the outmost? How can the negations, numbers and logical connectives are= =20 >> transformed into a prenex normal form? >> > > I don't understand what you mean. Could you give an example where you fin= d=20 > a prenex in a relative clause problematic? In general, a prenex in a=20 > non-restrictive relative clause cannot be exported to the main bridi pren= ex: > > ro da zo'u da prami la alis noi no de zo'u ke'a prami de > =3D ro da zo'u da prami la alis .i ta'o no de zo'u la alis prami de > =3D/=3D ro da no de zo'u da prami la alis .i je la alis prami de > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > non-restrictive relative clause is not related to the problem. How do we transform {poi}s with {zo'u} in prenex into prenex normal form?= =20 ro da=20 poi su'o de=20 poi su'o di poi rirni ke'a zo'u di cliva ke'a=20 zi'e poi ro daxire poi ctuca ke'a zo'u da .onai de tavla ke'a daxire zo'u de .a di xendo ke'a=20 zo'u ko'a poi su'o daxici zo'u daxici tavla de ke'a cu penmi di=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_51_655882336.1437607684577 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le mercredi 22 juillet 2015 22:15:52 UTC, xorxes a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0= :

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:12 AM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Relati= ve clauses should care about the main bridi, because the bridi in relative = clauses share their universe of discourse with the main bridi. About this e= xample of fragment, I said only "logically meaningless", but it d= oes not bring any problem by itself.=C2=A0

The pro= blem occurs in the case that plural relative clauses appears with their own= prenex, sometimes nested in logical connectives. Which prenex is the outmo= st? How can the negations, numbers and logical connectives are transformed = into a prenex normal form?

I do= n't understand what you mean. Could you give an example where you find = a prenex in a relative clause problematic? In general, a prenex in a non-re= strictive relative clause cannot be exported to the main bridi prenex:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0ro da zo'u da prami la alis noi no de= zo'u ke'a prami de
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D ro da zo'u da pr= ami la alis .i ta'o no de zo'u la alis prami de
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=3D/=3D ro da no de zo'u da prami la alis .i je la alis prami de<= /div>

mu'o mi'e xorxes


non-restrictive relative clau= se is not related to the problem.
How do we transform {poi}s with= {zo'u} in prenex into prenex normal form?=C2=A0
ro da=C2=A0<= /div>
= poi su'o de=C2=A0
poi su'o di poi rirni ke'a zo'u di cliva= ke'a=C2=A0
zi'e poi ro daxire poi ctuca ke'a zo'u da .ona= i de tavla ke'a daxire
zo'u de .a di xendo ke'a=C2=A0
zo'u ko'a poi su'o daxici zo'u daxici tavla de ke'a = cu penmi di=C2=A0

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