Received: from mail-qk0-f191.google.com ([209.85.220.191]:33869) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZI5Xy-0006rO-HT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:43:50 -0700 Received: by qkdu126 with SMTP id u126sf89910227qkd.1 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:43:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=E99sCgaKRe4o+KBz4i2l8/G5r93UOSuaA8yX6AxoJ6E=; b=kBTQNiNQCZQYnXX0SNz6tazWuGy6RwLVavVdOkYqC1DqiQb62TaaCHOKn9lteMfWKv 3oBYSLFKOnFFTdu+HmHtkS4ot8yz/i21SS6q9kA16qLWNoFBrAY3OjO0sPFEvPQbRi7s 7OlaqobEjM2tXjMyGHHXPSUJjmcYc7LNPKCZLK9MC89scm5L2LgeVe3zgRXQYG18u/Z/ B9iJ55BiA8ArDAZtlqL6xZtfKnPcXicxBg+vf4s5ro/1Ls4Fpl6qcG9oM7M3ea6QmxxT 4mzNeMxNyYJfozb0SPqfEXO/Q8blRuvI/LmiFL2FV6CaX0ZMlsGXvC3ZmbO91eg/fizq /yvg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=E99sCgaKRe4o+KBz4i2l8/G5r93UOSuaA8yX6AxoJ6E=; b=Y5GUe7pUtPXasHpkUHA1RFN4cYjvfz3qJLdnoDSXGh2nJiCS9lgbLprqH5ImGC9qS/ C5Kk7HXNXfhdFXBJgNl4EfND1bw5yKWL8HS6ueu7D1ZCpRGrhAciG3ao2QG1L4Cv4nmE grhvibXJ/Pm6PupCcrvhUAa3GDxFoiB1cHb2KLalyk0Z/N43FLfTrYkIw3hx2P1K9ZTz SVinUrUz8avj3hSyLe4YyQSqjSkONYHTiX7R7c5NjeN5DYucS9IjmFWG+dyVW7g+GeM6 meukjAPRnqf1nCMyuVzLwi/U1csGA60uhQK6omIpxfmucx1KfHqciSqA0pWljrVJ8TYB 0LFg== X-Received: by 10.50.43.133 with SMTP id w5mr235507igl.0.1437615816563; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:43:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.137.81 with SMTP id l78ls473677iod.80.gmail; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:43:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.114.38 with SMTP id jd6mr590912igb.11.1437615816154; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:43:34 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: lojban Cc: jjllambias@gmail.com, gusni.kantu@gmail.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1c2a3b64-07b1-4023-a740-362deb17da34@googlegroups.com> <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de> <55AE1142.5090807@gmx.de> <8bab9435-5f94-4742-b74a-8cceac2c8a60@googlegroups.com> <55AE616F.9040509@gmx.de> <8e076a72-407a-498b-bb60-a2badff5e40f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_201_1213642884.1437615814772" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_201_1213642884.1437615814772 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_202_1146575333.1437615814772" ------=_Part_202_1146575333.1437615814772 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-07-23 0:51 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:28 PM, guskant wrote: >> >> >> non-restrictive relative clause is not related to the problem. > > > They have the same grammar as restrictive clauses, so if you disallow the > prenex for one you disallow it for the other as well, unless you separate > their grammars. > =20 I agree. >> >> How do we transform {poi}s with {zo'u} in prenex into prenex normal=20 form?=20 >> ro da=20 >> poi su'o de=20 >> poi su'o di poi rirni ke'a zo'u di cliva ke'a=20 >> zi'e poi ro daxire poi ctuca ke'a zo'u da .onai de tavla ke'a daxire >> zo'u de .a di xendo ke'a=20 >> zo'u ko'a poi su'o daxici zo'u daxici tavla de ke'a cu penmi di=20 > > > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, it's very confusing. The same > variable names are being used inside and outside the scope of their=20 binders, > which means they have to be bound with new implicit "su'o". Also, is "su'= o > di poi rirni ke'a" really meant to mean just "su'o se rirni", for example= ? > Embedded relative clauses can get confusing very fast, so it's not a good > idea to use "ke'a" when you could use "da", "de", "di". "ke'a" will alway= s > correspond to the tightest "poi". > > Could you make a simpler example where your problem shows up, preferrably > with the fewest possible variables? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > ex.1) ro da=20 poi su'o de=20 poi ro di zo'u di broda de da zo'u de brode da di=20 zo'u da brodi de di Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s nested in {poi}? Maybe the preceding=20 ones are outer, but I have never seen the rule written. ex.2) ro da=20 poi su'o de zo'u de broda da zi'e poi ro di zo'u di brode da zo'u da brodi de di Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s in {poi} connected with {zi'e}? Maybe we= =20 can define the preceding ones are outer. If so, ex.2 seems apparently the= =20 same with ex.2-1) ro da=20 poi ro di zo'u di brode da zi'e poi su'o de zo'u de broda da zo'u da brodi de di but actually they will have different meaning. ex.3) su'o de zo'u ko'a poi ro da zo'u da broda ke'a cu brode de When {zo'u} in {poi} is covered with a constant {ko'a}, is it considered=20 outer than {su'o de} or inner? --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_202_1146575333.1437615814772 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-07-23 0:5= 1 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:28 PM, guskant= <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> non-restrictive relative clause is not related to th= e problem.
>= ;
><= br style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">> They have the s= ame grammar as restrictive clauses, so if you disallow the
> prenex for one you disal= low it for the other as well, unless you separate
> their grammars.
> =C2=A0

I agree.

>>
>> How do we transform {poi}s with {zo'u} in prene= x into prenex normal form?=C2=A0
>> ro da=C2=A0
>> poi su'o de=C2=A0
>> poi su'o di poi rir= ni ke'a zo'u di cliva ke'a=C2=A0
>> zi'e poi ro daxire poi ctuca ke= 'a zo'u da .onai de tavla ke'a daxire
>> zo'u de .a di xendo ke'= ;a=C2=A0
>&= gt; zo'u ko'a poi su'o daxici zo'u daxici tavla de ke'a= cu penmi di=C2=A0
>
>=
> Not sure= what that is supposed to mean, it's very confusing. The same> variable names are= being used inside and outside the scope of their binders,
> which means they have to= be bound with new implicit "su'o". Also, is "su'o
> di poi rir= ni ke'a" really meant to mean just "su'o se rirni", = for example?
&= gt; Embedded relative clauses can get confusing very fast, so it's not = a good
> id= ea to use "ke'a" when you could use "da", "de&= quot;, "di". "ke'a" will always
> correspond to the tightest &= quot;poi".
> Co= uld you make a simpler example where your problem shows up, preferrably
> with the few= est possible variables?
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>

ex.1)
ro da=C2=A0
poi= su'o de=C2=A0
po= i ro di zo'u di broda de da
= zo'u de brode da di=C2=A0
zo'u da brodi de di

Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s nested in {= poi}? Maybe the preceding ones are outer, but I have never seen the rule wr= itten.

ex.2)
ro da=C2=A0
=
poi su'o de zo'u de broda da=
zi'e poi ro di zo= 'u di brode da
zo'u da brodi de di

Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s in {poi} connected with {zi&= #39;e}? Maybe we can define the preceding ones are outer. If so, ex.2 seems= apparently the same with

ex.2-1)
ro = da=C2=A0
poi ro di zo= 9;u di brode da
zi'e= poi su'o de zo'u de broda da
zo'u da brodi de di

but actually they will have different meaning.

=
ex.3)
su'o de zo'u ko'a poi = ro da zo'u da broda ke'a cu brode de

When {zo'u} in {poi} is covered with a constant {= ko'a}, is it considered outer than {su'o de} or inner?
=


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