Received: from mail-la0-f56.google.com ([209.85.215.56]:33853) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZI9k2-0000kB-7s for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:33 -0700 Received: by laef2 with SMTP id f2sf99217149lae.1 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=OqUsy6SDLMYrvJOhNnMrtRg28MsIA+SXoXGkNn0QJL8=; b=gafqP5aRzYDLi4Rzdah3K1xviWTlA8oD9Hjd66WnpfpF9IglMMqfBErhY30yeILMtv hYEGb5d19ZT4a+6BeTZXUhGgaf2uwNIqKTA83BacBImPz+VrrR84YGkt5Hhk0PP7kRKV pS8fdW0g2rNCTrBqoiHnQ8Wl4V3F+CXOPYdSEt8/aX7qCYpqIWnctbmPblCqLqTDkvKT ILzqR0zaPuaB8Vp9bpFy6FPJ0SJ2VO92M4mJ3AZlsEbG9FHjpSQtKEZTPX7TpLbeNrC+ yNeIZf9+DYRNM8ZDX7BZjk5lRxKBghKOc4vCXyN3uDIFcSyBlhV4X/lNRDOHGvfABX+o yWcg== X-Received: by 10.152.22.67 with SMTP id b3mr125839laf.28.1437631939273; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.6.231 with SMTP id e7ls179017laa.34.gmail; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.189.131 with SMTP id gi3mr2976476lbc.6.1437631938406; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cj6si800913wib.1.2015.07.22.23.12.18 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::232; Received: by mail-wi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id xm9so132767895wib.1 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.109.229 with SMTP id hv5mr13098489wjb.119.1437631938241; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:12:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.162.130 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:11:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55AD9D78.90107@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 09:11:38 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Internal grammar of UI, NAI and CAI To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b60441aff2c5a051b84c4d8 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b60441aff2c5a051b84c4d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-07-23 1:38 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:07 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> 2015-07-21 23:47 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : >> >>> "ri'e", yes. Not so sure about "zo'o" though. It's usually used as >>> standalone, and your grammar doesn't allow ROhA to stand by itself. >>> >> >> Yes, {zo'o} can't stand for itself. It is described as a modifier of >> interjections so I ban it here. >> When people use {zo'o} alone then according to altatufa ideology it >> implies that interjection core was elided. altatufa >> autorestores {ju'a} in such cases leading to {ju'a zo'o}. >> > > I don't know, what about things that are not assertions: > > - zo'o do se nazbi xo da > {ju'a do se nuzba xo da} - what's the problem with it? > - zo'o ko citka ta > I think this is wrong if we expand {ko} into {do ko'oi}. Then we get two attitudinals not connected to each other. Hence the meaning would be "I state that you eat it (kidding). [Please], eat it!" > I think "zo'o" is more like "le'o", "vu'e", "ga'i", a stance, a mental or > emotional position adopted by the speaker. What are the arguments to make > it an interjection modifier? > Because it's defined as such? If due to misusage it became a full interjection that's another question. But as a modifier it's much more powerful. Otherwise how can we modify attitudinals? Besides, I just don't see how it can work on its own except when you assume that you elide the interjection root. > This can be tested using the current stable version of altatufa: >> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/altatufa-stodi.html >> > > It doesn't seem to work for me. > What did you try to enter? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b60441aff2c5a051b84c4d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-07-23 1:38 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com= >:

On Wed,= Jul 22, 2015 at 3:07 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com> wrote:

2015-07-2= 1 23:47 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
"ri'e", yes. Not so sure about = "zo'o" though. It's usually used as standalone, and your = grammar doesn't allow ROhA to stand by itself.
<= br>
Yes, {zo'o} can't stand for itself. It is desc= ribed as a modifier of interjections so I ban it here.
When peopl= e use {zo'o} alone then according to altatufa ideology it implies that = interjection core was elided. altatufa=C2=A0
autorestores {ju'= ;a} in such cases leading to {ju'a zo'o}.

I don't know, what about things t= hat are not assertions:

- =C2=A0zo'o do se naz= bi xo da

{ju'a = do se nuzba xo da} - what's the problem with it?



- =C2=A0zo'= o ko citka ta

I thi= nk this is wrong if we expand {ko} into {do ko'oi}. Then we get two att= itudinals not connected to each other. Hence the meaning would be "I s= tate that you eat it (kidding). [Please], eat it!"


I think "zo'o"= ; is more like "le'o", "vu'e", "ga'i&q= uot;, a stance, a mental or emotional position adopted by the speaker. What= are the arguments to make it an interjection modifier?

Because it's defined as such? If d= ue to misusage it became a full interjection that's another question. B= ut as a modifier it's much more powerful. Otherwise how can we modify a= ttitudinals? Besides, I just don't see how it can work on its own excep= t when you assume that you elide the interjection root.


This can be tested using the current stable version of alt= atufa:

It doesn't seem to work for me.=C2=A0
What did you try to enter?
=C2=A0

mu'o mi'= e xorxes

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