Received: from mail-pd0-f189.google.com ([209.85.192.189]:32827) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZINUB-00043g-PU for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:53:06 -0700 Received: by pdrg1 with SMTP id g1sf1717409pdr.0 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:52:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Et9GqTqjrIh/UZc0utzu26Edy0QsBmrcn+euILGjwrw=; b=Y5Owt+QGaOfTdWDxMJ9KyP4jIuBiwhlir81o1MIS6DRScNtREjX0zbP34jv2XXBVUy oyU4WN9DAihQJxOsfwzpmL5gW+YtNwf+rz0eh1RWPhndJhCJxOr8tkA/wuTsUGTK3EM3 cLI3wzv5x1FmkMCohq0/9DpjY86LPGt9mlm7157euMrsY2bjVe0fQ2xF3EXpHwqMhTnG orF83gJXkOOuCf41qFUhsSzAMDYREDA2sXiMOtyjip+LbXtPrxZ/S424Tz0U162aN9kh XByphj65u5JCqpNgK7c4eaLJ+nfN0H8j57LtlCwMGriymlHuCc83gGQD54ivOttiHAcd EICQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Et9GqTqjrIh/UZc0utzu26Edy0QsBmrcn+euILGjwrw=; b=fHJIA6aCtQjTkhgkNFaYRhzsDIvpDdT2ZWdH1tZQsveZoRvUC9qLztRUc73hAldT+s XB4thUyr8+qL7iw5rK40iC+91Q2QMco3SNfhUxT3JzHZA3UGcKtw6bOHPycIzR630iFo XrSuGDsuDG4Wry179VsIz2g13wipJBMaqnbcbMVTzBLpXUxnOvYXJIBON6Jlblu3qS0E vwGDK6adVyQu7Lht4U/s4NUJwyyV7xWO3rHTgmvJl4g/K7lH4g2YtSVoXOpCCNRwIqfw 7wjNF+Zskk68e5Z5NLQUDhktOf1o0EqUM/r443KfD4qKcI2gjSY/FqkiHsb7gNTbnTcg 682Q== X-Received: by 10.50.43.133 with SMTP id w5mr8475igl.0.1437684773483; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.134.212 with SMTP id q81ls669353ioi.44.gmail; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.128.197 with SMTP id nq5mr6690igb.13.1437684773160; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:52:50 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: lojban Cc: jjllambias@gmail.com Message-Id: <3c04f416-2d4d-4d3f-8d55-a090d799090f@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1c2a3b64-07b1-4023-a740-362deb17da34@googlegroups.com> <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de> <55AE1142.5090807@gmx.de> <8bab9435-5f94-4742-b74a-8cceac2c8a60@googlegroups.com> <55AE616F.9040509@gmx.de> <8e076a72-407a-498b-bb60-a2badff5e40f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1286_439635189.1437684770913" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1286_439635189.1437684770913 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1287_1479333426.1437684770913" ------=_Part_1287_1479333426.1437684770913 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > 2015-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:43 PM, guskant wrote= : > >> > >> > >> ex.1) > >> ro da=20 > >> poi su'o de=20 > >> poi ro di zo'u di broda de da > >> zo'u de brode da di=20 > >> zo'u da brodi de di=20 > >> > >> > >> Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s nested in {poi}? Maybe the precedin= g > >> ones are outer, but I have never seen the rule written. > > > > > > The second and third "di" are not bound by "ro di", they are outside i= ts > > scope. and the third "de" is not bound by "su'o de". So filling in the > > missing implicit quantifiers, your sentence becomes: > > > > ro da=20 > > poi su'o de=20 > > poi ro di zo'u di broda de da [ku'o su'o di] > > zo'u de brode da di [ku'o su'o de su'o di] > > zo'u da brodi de di=20 > > > > The variable "di" is bound three times independently, and the variable= =20 > "de" > > twice.=20 > > > > A simpler example is "ro da poi su'o de zo'u da de broda zo'u da de=20 > brode". > > That's enough to show the issue you're talking about. Linguists call=20 > these > > sentences "donkey sentences", after "Every farmer who owns a donkey bea= ts > > it". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_sentence > > > > A variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be used > > outside the relative clause. The scope of the quantifier is limited to= =20 > the > > relative clause only. > > > This understanding would solve all my problems. However, my problems come= =20 exactly from doubt on this understanding. Could you explain the reason for= =20 that a variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be used= =20 outside the relative clause in spite of they stand on the same universe of= =20 discourse on the outer bridi? =20 > > >> ex.2) > >> ro da=20 > >> poi su'o de zo'u de broda da > >> zi'e poi ro di zo'u di brode da > >> zo'u da brodi de di > >> > >> Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s in {poi} connected with {zi'e}? May= be > >> we can define the preceding ones are outer. If so, ex.2 seems=20 > apparently the > >> same with > >> > >> ex.2-1) > >> ro da=20 > >> poi ro di zo'u di brode da > >> zi'e poi su'o de zo'u de broda da > >> zo'u da brodi de di > >> > >> but actually they will have different meaning. > > > > > > The two have the same meaning, but the final "de" and "di" are=20 > independent > > of the ones inside the relative clauses.=20 > > > >> ex.3) > >> su'o de zo'u ko'a poi ro da zo'u da broda ke'a cu brode de > >> > >> When {zo'u} in {poi} is covered with a constant {ko'a}, is it consider= ed > >> outer than {su'o de} or inner? > > > > > > This one is not problematic (other than the issue of what exactly a > > restrictive clause does to a constant, but this has nothing to do with > > whether or not the restrictive clause contains bound variables).=20 > Presumably > > "ko'a poi ro da zo'u da broda ke'a" are the ko'as that everyone brodas.= =20 > So > > the sentence says that there is someone that the ko'as that everyone=20 > broda, > > brode.=20 > > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1287_1479333426.1437684770913 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:43 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.co= m> wrote:
&= gt;>
>&g= t;
>> ex= .1)
<= span style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">>> r= o da=C2=A0
>= ;> poi su'o de=C2=A0
>> poi ro di zo'u di broda de da
>> zo'u de brode da di= =C2=A0
>>= ; zo'u da brodi de di=C2=A0
>>
>>
>> Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s nested in {poi}? Ma= ybe the preceding
>> ones are outer, but I have never seen the rule written.=
>
>
> =C2=A0The second and third "= di" are not bound by "ro di", they are outside its> scope. and the thi= rd "de" is not bound by "su'o de". So filling in th= e
> missing= implicit quantifiers, your sentence becomes:
>
> ro da=C2=A0
> poi su'o de=C2=A0
> poi ro di zo'u di broda de = da [ku'o su'o di]
> zo'u de brode da di [ku'o su'o de su'o di]=
> zo'u= da brodi de di=C2=A0
>
&= gt; The variable "di" is bound three times independently, and the= variable "de"
> twice.=C2=A0
>
> A simpler example is "ro da poi su'o de zo'u da de = broda zo'u da de brode".
> That's enough to show the issue you're tal= king about. Linguists call these
> sentences "donkey sentences", after "= ;Every farmer who owns a donkey beats
> it". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey= _sentence
>=
> A variab= le bound within a relative clause is not available to be used
> outside the relative c= lause. The scope of the quantifier is limited to the
> relative clause only.>
=

This understanding would = solve all my problems. However, my problems come exactly from doubt on this= understanding. Could you explain the reason for that a variable bound with= in a relative clause is not available to be used outside the relative claus= e in spite of they stand on the same universe of discourse on the outer bri= di?

=C2=A0

>> ex.2)
>> ro da=C2=A0
>> poi su'o de zo'u de broda da
>> zi'e poi ro di= zo'u di brode da
>> zo'u da brodi de di
>>
>> Do we have a rule to unify {zo'u}s in {p= oi} connected with {zi'e}? Maybe
>> we can define the preceding ones are outer.= If so, ex.2 seems apparently the
>> same with
>>
>> ex.2-1)
>> ro da=C2=A0
>> poi ro di zo'u di brode da
>> zi'e p= oi su'o de zo'u de broda da
>> zo'u da brodi de di
>>
>> but actually they will have di= fferent meaning.
>
>
> The two ha= ve the same meaning, but the final "de" and "di" are in= dependent
>= of the ones inside the relative clauses.=C2=A0
>
>> ex.3)
>> su'o de zo'u ko'a poi ro da = zo'u da broda ke'a cu brode de
>>
>> When {zo'u} in {poi} is covered with a con= stant {ko'a}, is it considered
>> outer than {su'o de} or inner?
>
>
> This one is not problematic (other th= an the issue of what exactly a
> restrictive clause does to a constant, but this has n= othing to do with
> whether or not the restrictive clause contains bound variables). P= resumably
>= "ko'a poi ro da zo'u da broda ke'a" are the ko'a= s that everyone brodas. So
> the sentence says that there is someone that the ko'a= s that everyone broda,
> brode.=C2=A0
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>

--
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