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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 23:56:05 +0200
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause
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On 23/07/2015 23:15, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 5:52 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com=20
> <mailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         2015-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas
>         <jjllambias@gmail.com <mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com>>:
>         >
>         > A variable bound within a relative clause is not available to
>         be used
>         > outside the relative clause. The scope of the quantifier is
>         limited to the
>         > relative clause only.
>
>     This understanding would solve all my problems. However, my
>     problems come exactly from doubt on this understanding. Could you
>     explain the reason for that a variable bound within a relative
>     clause is not available to be used outside the relative clause in
>     spite of they stand on the same universe of discourse on the outer
>     bridi?
>
>
> That's just how first order predicate logic works. A quantifier=20
> quantifies a bridi. The variable is just a place-keeping device,=20
> internal to the mechanism of quantification, it doesn't refer to=20
> anything, so it can't be used from outside the bridi as if it referred=20
> to something. It has nothing to do with universe of discourse.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes

Please correctly if I made any mistake:

ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di
=3D ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o di zo'u di da kanla
=3D ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanla
=3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska gi=20
suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla
=3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa lodu'u suzdza fa=
=20
loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla

With this expansion, you can see that actually da/de/di outside of a=20
prenex expand to {ce'u}, so it is an open slot used for making=20
properties of which we will quantify how many entities they are=20
satisfied with, using logical quantification predicates (roldza, suzdza).

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


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  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type=
">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 23/07/2015 23:15, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAO7tK2cjcZdxcDVS6gU+BfXYt1368c8yoF94a0xNwx_EbdyUvA@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 5:52 PM,
          guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
              href=3D"mailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni=
.kantu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div class=3D"HOEnZb">
                <div class=3D"h5">
                  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
style=3D"border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-le=
ft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir=3D"ltr">
                      <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">2015-07-23
                          20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt;<a
                            moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                            href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com"
                            target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;:=
</span><br
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">
                        <span
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">&gt;</span><br
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">
                        <span
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">&gt;
                          A variable bound within a relative clause is
                          not available to be used</span><br
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">
                        <span
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">&gt;
                          outside the relative clause. The scope of the
                          quantifier is limited to the</span><br
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">
                        <span
                          style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">&gt;
                          relative clause only.</span></div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>This understanding would solve all my problems.
                  However, my problems come exactly from doubt on this
                  understanding. Could you explain the reason for that a
                  variable bound within a relative clause is not
                  available to be used outside the relative clause in
                  spite of they stand on the same universe of discourse
                  on the outer bridi?</div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>That's just how first order predicate logic works. A
              quantifier quantifies a bridi. The variable is just a
              place-keeping device, internal to the mechanism of
              quantification, it doesn't refer to anything, so it can't
              be used from outside the bridi as if it referred to
              something. It has nothing to do with universe of
              discourse.=C2=A0</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>mu'o mi'e xorxes<br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Please correctly if I made any mistake:<br>
    <br>
    ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di<br>
    =3D ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o di zo'u di da kanla<=
br>
    =3D ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da
    kanla<br>
    =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska gi
    suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla<br>
    =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa lodu'u
    suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza fa loka
    ce'u ko'a kanla<br>
    <br>
    With this expansion, you can see that actually da/de/di outside of a
    prenex expand to {ce'u}, so it is an open slot used for making
    properties of which we will quantify how many entities they are
    satisfied with, using logical quantification predicates (roldza,
    suzdza).<br>
    <br>
    mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o<br>
    <br>
    <br>
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