Received: from mail-yk0-f191.google.com ([209.85.160.191]:34251) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZJLyw-0005w3-IC for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:28:55 -0700 Received: by ykax123 with SMTP id x123sf22727066yka.1 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:28:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=NKsGRRzBln6RIJpFW8+XMjg4/F0769H068R3VuxLzf8=; b=HyARLiNyvYB0VYs+G4OdkisJNalwt0DQnyzdrK5F8SCkFxoTQONdXWsP9HRYk7HWR5 ngyasaz/EYn1kjnXH+MqYit8562FFirDJK4lHBBjhxHLZpKbkE+AvVsem1JKZufjJSnn seuZs6JiKYy9LlYDH3ABne6VxbGDMqZqmiolCct7CLu4xp5lgR/FbSFGB37EmxHT4RUs ETjjknIxOJ9HdfznpKgaUoOi9bJJHfXNHYiYtxw6p5oyg5g7XUCfvtrt8FF9apyYU4cg VC6c/h6KFC3SiEydw8UjsPKiYur1eNvokPt0cR72ZKMN2gaf9zA3OGbUtZACIrPBI5D5 4KlQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=NKsGRRzBln6RIJpFW8+XMjg4/F0769H068R3VuxLzf8=; b=IjUh0u39d1ptL4fQ4ObAX2EWjwU3khMa92+8vwZYNb72MNHhPmwf22ZAvnU4jPSocv JzID1RlburM7Zzxsnv+pedjmgWP+RHEFyT2lp3BvHBD3jO0SrPm3Ch16QNEP5b09hZaf p+TldpTXI/DbpZIWw73dX14meOSW00PQnlKncowc0uLzwWYEIpEu05FhPL9T61qz7i93 GMDQ1sMcpCL15KDgbfnyucu9AOcEWKiVOFRHqvP9UUp0PTinYo/VqA8uaQwpHvXIANdV Ac4mlf5KbGxzlWBW8CIZ6pZL0c4aIMuz8seiBnh++/7LuNYjCW06tnP1khe33YqiSyHs 0Efg== X-Received: by 10.50.79.137 with SMTP id j9mr122585igx.15.1437917320191; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:28:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.79.196 with SMTP id l4ls410698igx.22.canary; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:28:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.6.36 with SMTP id x4mr123189igx.14.1437917319790; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:28:38 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: lojban Cc: jjllambias@gmail.com Message-Id: <549b5a56-dc0a-4ab8-83b7-69ecfc4fac93@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1c2a3b64-07b1-4023-a740-362deb17da34@googlegroups.com> <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de> <55AE1142.5090807@gmx.de> <8bab9435-5f94-4742-b74a-8cceac2c8a60@googlegroups.com> <55AE616F.9040509@gmx.de> <8e076a72-407a-498b-bb60-a2badff5e40f@googlegroups.com> <3c04f416-2d4d-4d3f-8d55-a090d799090f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_512_1435804999.1437917318701" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_512_1435804999.1437917318701 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_513_1965243584.1437917318701" ------=_Part_513_1965243584.1437917318701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:15:26 UTC, xorxes a =C3=A9crit : > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 5:52 PM, guskant > > wrote: >> >> 2015-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >> >: >>> > >>> > A variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be used >>> > outside the relative clause. The scope of the quantifier is limited t= o=20 >>> the >>> > relative clause only. >>> >> This understanding would solve all my problems. However, my problems com= e=20 >> exactly from doubt on this understanding. Could you explain the reason f= or=20 >> that a variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be us= ed=20 >> outside the relative clause in spite of they stand on the same universe = of=20 >> discourse on the outer bridi? >> > > That's just how first order predicate logic works. A quantifier quantifie= s=20 > a bridi. The variable is just a place-keeping device, internal to the=20 > mechanism of quantification, it doesn't refer to anything,=20 > I know up to this. so it can't be used from outside the bridi as if it referred to something.= =20 > It has nothing to do with universe of discourse.=20 > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > I didn't say the variable bound by a quantifier refers to something. When a= =20 variable is bound by a quantifier, the variable has a domain on or in a=20 universe of discourse, otherwise the binding is meaningless. As long as a= =20 bridi including bound variables has a truth value, there should be a=20 universe of discourse. {poi}-clause attached to a variable restricts the domain of variable to a= =20 certain part of universe of discourse of the outer bridi. The universe=20 should be shared by the inner and outer of {poi}. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_513_1965243584.1437917318701 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:15:26 UTC, xorxes a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 5:52 PM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com> wrote:
201= 5-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjlla...@gmail.com>:
>
> A vari= able bound within a relative clause is not available to be used
> outside the relative clause. T= he scope of the quantifier is limited to the
> relative clause only.
This understanding would solve all my problems. H= owever, my problems come exactly from doubt on this understanding. Could yo= u explain the reason for that a variable bound within a relative clause is = not available to be used outside the relative clause in spite of they stand= on the same universe of discourse on the outer bridi?

That's just how first order predicate logic wor= ks. A quantifier quantifies a bridi. The variable is just a place-keeping d= evice, internal to the mechanism of quantification, it doesn't refer to= anything,


I know up to this.

= so it can't be used from outside the bridi as if it referred to somethi= ng. It has nothing to do with universe of discourse.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=


I didn't say the vari= able bound by a quantifier refers to something. When a variable is bound by= a quantifier, the variable has a domain on or in a universe of discourse, = otherwise the binding is meaningless. As long as a bridi including bound va= riables has a truth value, there should be a universe of discourse.

{poi}-clause attached to a variable restricts the domain = of variable to a certain part of universe of discourse of the outer bridi. = The universe should be shared by the inner and outer of {poi}.
=C2=A0

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