Received: from mail-vn0-f64.google.com ([209.85.216.64]:34736) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZJLzx-0005xO-8Z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:29:59 -0700 Received: by vnav141 with SMTP id v141sf22740909vna.1 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:29:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=OrB3+r5vz9mKA8nDFr0TJtcpFFmM+FJr+ltc8fNHh+A=; b=ZCNiJBWpeV0Mqeh36+mkiTcPgCMyYVOt02Hb5pz3K//pGC0vL1V/AE3mmXiBJSMt5k mJGHUuTSLfqdDFQuzyPN7KsS1ZXGkgasu0hYCp8/bSZyAY1JadB3Jk6sfQZLDuMGHJOH dVh7LPMMi3yx8Yom2fGlAmGjUkkuRz/f45gHpiZCXbo6QFb4UElrs8pzNaK44xxL0KeC qn4GDTbM3lp7wubGG25Rf97ZwatQWzYJIZPuyUNZYeOaQrWbOPPkNJ7lPDwX9eg9KoEz lW3QAsrkLH+FSWnlGmMB9jgRhKk6mXSWeel1SkPuJeK38OAQQ/Ik0cDFM/yS6V/GS8M4 1f1g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=OrB3+r5vz9mKA8nDFr0TJtcpFFmM+FJr+ltc8fNHh+A=; b=MLn+7cDJxzlPplBtwqAgQ2khllHtMP+fTaIKCufYBKw3Za5g6JGnMUXID0Dy3p6nZe 95mNlJ3Zu7i4WWJnLshCOvXVkYVmIJv22s0J+eXtaRik5JkFouSeZeGzK+fFEuSIRvir f2UOn2pTb2JWR1uJkcR6vJsTAfRcOrnXi+JbpQqo3mcfKfO6nUpdrIijzej+eRWkj/8C rv+YksOuYhB2ZzakrKOqH2o0Kcn18RflUOdnYfzsf0GyFvKJ7aCBelszSH1uXEE+lJi9 E6alw1NdJuI1m3KG0/15YH54jLgnFcftmAGLCcSg7W8iXUGMrdHKx3ggJZNL3di29iiu 8ZbQ== X-Received: by 10.50.114.38 with SMTP id jd6mr123638igb.11.1437917383262; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:29:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.27.134 with SMTP id b128ls1480265iob.50.gmail; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:29:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.107.105 with SMTP id hb9mr123263igb.3.1437917383041; Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 06:29:41 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: lojban Cc: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com Message-Id: <88204a7b-4228-4563-811a-14e4583cf8bd@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <55B162F5.8070302@gmail.com> References: <1c2a3b64-07b1-4023-a740-362deb17da34@googlegroups.com> <55AD070D.5020903@gmx.de> <55AE1142.5090807@gmx.de> <8bab9435-5f94-4742-b74a-8cceac2c8a60@googlegroups.com> <55AE616F.9040509@gmx.de> <8e076a72-407a-498b-bb60-a2badff5e40f@googlegroups.com> <3c04f416-2d4d-4d3f-8d55-a090d799090f@googlegroups.com> <55B162F5.8070302@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2439_240862497.1437917381933" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_2439_240862497.1437917381933 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2440_1349911182.1437917381933" ------=_Part_2440_1349911182.1437917381933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit : > > =20 > > On 23/07/2015 23:15, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > =20 > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 5:52 PM, guskant > > wrote:=20 > >> 2015-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >> >: >>> > >>> > A variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be used >>> > outside the relative clause. The scope of the quantifier is limited t= o=20 >>> the >>> > relative clause only. >>> =20 >> This understanding would solve all my problems. However, my problems= =20 >> come exactly from doubt on this understanding. Could you explain the rea= son=20 >> for that a variable bound within a relative clause is not available to b= e=20 >> used outside the relative clause in spite of they stand on the same=20 >> universe of discourse on the outer bridi? >> =20 > > That's just how first order predicate logic works. A quantifier=20 > quantifies a bridi. The variable is just a place-keeping device, internal= =20 > to the mechanism of quantification, it doesn't refer to anything, so it= =20 > can't be used from outside the bridi as if it referred to something. It h= as=20 > nothing to do with universe of discourse.=20 > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > =20 > > Please correctly if I made any mistake: > > ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di > =3D ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o di zo'u di da kanla > =3D ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanla > =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska gi suz= dza=20 > fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla > =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa lodu'u suzdza f= a=20 > loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla > > With this expansion, you can see that actually da/de/di outside of a=20 > prenex expand to {ce'u}, so it is an open slot used for making properties= =20 > of which we will quantify how many entities they are satisfied with, usin= g=20 > logical quantification predicates (roldza, suzdza). > > mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o > > > It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a prenex normal=20 form?=20 =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2440_1349911182.1437917381933 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: =20 =20 =20


On 23/07/2015 23:15, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 5:52 PM, guskant <gusn= i...@gmail.com> wrote:
2015-07-23 20:28 GMT+00:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjlla...@gmail.com>:
>
> A variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be used
> outside the relative clause. The scope of the quantifier is limited to the
> relative clause only.
This understanding would solve all my problems. However, my problems come exactly from doubt on this understanding. Could you explain the reason for that a variable bound within a relative clause is not available to be used outside the relative clause in spite of they stand on the same universe of discourse on the outer bridi?

That's just how first order predicate logic works. A quantifier quantifies a bridi. The variable is just a place-keeping device, internal to the mechanism of quantification, it doesn't refer to anything, so it can&#= 39;t be used from outside the bridi as if it referred to something. It has nothing to do with universe of discourse.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Please correctly if I made any mistake:

ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di
=3D ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o = di zo'u di da kanla
=3D ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o d= i zo'u di da kanla
=3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce&= #39;u viska gi suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla
=3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa l= odu'u suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza= fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla

With this expansion, you can see that actually da/de/di outside of a prenex expand to {ce'u}, so it is an open slot used for making properties of which we will quantify how many entities they are satisfied with, using logical quantification predicates (roldza, suzdza).

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o





It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a prenex normal f= orm?=C2=A0
=C2=A0

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