Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 15:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Cc: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause
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Le dimanche 26 juillet 2015 21:34:54 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit :
>
> =20
> On 26/07/2015 15:29, guskant wrote:
> =20
>
> Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit :=20
>>
>> =20
>> Please correctly if I made any mistake:
>>
>> ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di
>> =3D ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o di zo'u di da kanla
>> =3D ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanl=
a
>> =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska gi=20
>> suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla
>> =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa lodu'u suzdza =
fa=20
>> loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanl=
a
>>
>> With this expansion, you can see that actually da/de/di outside of a=20
>> prenex expand to {ce'u}, so it is an open slot used for making propertie=
s=20
>> of which we will quantify how many entities they are satisfied with, usi=
ng=20
>> logical quantification predicates (roldza, suzdza).
>>
>> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
>>
>> =20
> =20
>  It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a prenex normal=
=20
> form?
> =20
>
> Once again, please correct me if I made any mistake:
>
> {ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanla}
> =3D =E2=88=80x((=E2=88=83y(viska(x,y))) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z,x))=
)
>
> # Application of the "(=E2=88=83x=CF=95) =E2=86=92 =CF=88" =E2=89=A1 "=E2=
=88=80x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)" transformation:
> =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z,x=
)))
>
> # Application of the "=CF=95 =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83x=CF=88)" =E2=89=A1 "=E2=
=88=83x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)" transformation:
> =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(=E2=88=83z(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 kanla(z,x)=
)
>
> =3D {ro da ro de su'o di zo'u ganai da de viska gi di da kanla} (prenex=
=20
> normal form)
>
> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
>
>
>


I appreciate your formation. One point to confirm is about your first=20
formation using {roldza} and {suzdza}. That is one of a reasonable=20
interpretation of a bridi nested in {poi}-clause, and I agree to that=20
interpretation. Is that a common interpretation among lojban speakers? In=
=20
fact, la xorxes seems to be against it, and the prenex in {poi}-clause=20
cannot be put out according to his interpretation, and his interpretation=
=20
is also consistent.
=20

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<br><br>Le dimanche 26 juillet 2015 21:34:54 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bor=
der-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    <div>On 26/07/2015 15:29, guskant wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>
      Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
        <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> <br>
          Please correctly if I made any mistake:<br>
          <br>
          ro da poi ke&#39;a su&#39;o de viska cu se kanla su&#39;o di<br>
          =3D ro da poi su&#39;o de zo&#39;u ke&#39;a de viska ku&#39;o su&=
#39;o di zo&#39;u di da
          kanla<br>
          =3D ro da zo&#39;u ganai su&#39;o de zo&#39;u da de viska gi su&#=
39;o di zo&#39;u di
          da kanla<br>
          =3D roldza fa loka ko&#39;a ce&#39;ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko&#39=
;a ce&#39;u
          viska gi suzdza fa loka ce&#39;u ko&#39;a kanla<br>
          =3D roldza fa loka ko&#39;a ce&#39;ai zilvlina fa lodu&#39;u jitf=
a fa lodu&#39;u
          suzdza fa loka ko&#39;a ce&#39;u viska kei kei kei fe lodu&#39;u =
suzdza fa
          loka ce&#39;u ko&#39;a kanla<br>
          <br>
          With this expansion, you can see that actually da/de/di
          outside of a prenex expand to {ce&#39;u}, so it is an open slot
          used for making properties of which we will quantify how many
          entities they are satisfied with, using logical quantification
          predicates (roldza, suzdza).<br>
          <br>
          mi&#39;e la .ilmen. mu&#39;o<br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a
        prenex normal form?<br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Once again, please correct me if I made any mistake:<br>
    <br>
    {ro da zo&#39;u ganai su&#39;o de zo&#39;u da de viska gi su&#39;o di z=
o&#39;u di da
    kanla}<br>
    =3D =E2=88=80x((=E2=88=83y(viska(x,y))) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z,x=
)))<br>
    <br>
    # Application of the &quot;(=E2=88=83x=CF=95) =E2=86=92 =CF=88&quot; =
=E2=89=A1 &quot;=E2=88=80x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)&quot; transformation:<b=
r>
    =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z=
,x)))<br>
    <br>
    # Application of the &quot;=CF=95 =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83x=CF=88)&quot; =
=E2=89=A1 &quot;=E2=88=83x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)&quot; transformation:<b=
r>
    =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(=E2=88=83z(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 kanla(z,=
x))<br>
    <br>
    =3D {ro da ro de su&#39;o di zo&#39;u ganai da de viska gi di da kanla}
    (prenex normal form)<br>
    <br>
    mi&#39;e la .ilmen. mu&#39;o<br>
    <br>
    <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>I appreciate your formation. One point to confirm is about your first for=
mation using {roldza} and {suzdza}. That is one of a reasonable interpretat=
ion of a bridi nested in {poi}-clause, and I agree to that interpretation. =
Is that a common interpretation among lojban speakers? In fact, la xorxes s=
eems to be against it, and the prenex in {poi}-clause cannot be put out acc=
ording to his interpretation, and his interpretation is also consistent.</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div>

<p></p>

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