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Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:02:30 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2eakUd9wbFoQUuwV_NhSHLPDZVQpqYLiraZP7jDDVaYDw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 7:04 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Le dimanche 26 juillet 2015 21:34:54 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> On 26/07/2015 15:29, guskant wrote:
>>
> Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>>  ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di
>>> =3D ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o di zo'u di da kanla
>>> =3D ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kan=
la
>>> =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska gi
>>> suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla
>>> =3D roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa lodu'u suzdza=
 fa
>>> loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kan=
la
>>>
>>> It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a prenex normal
>> form?
>>
>> {ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanla}
>> =3D =E2=88=80x((=E2=88=83y(viska(x,y))) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z,x)=
))
>>
>> # Application of the "(=E2=88=83x=CF=95) =E2=86=92 =CF=88" =E2=89=A1 "=
=E2=88=80x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)" transformation:
>> =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z,=
x)))
>>
>> # Application of the "=CF=95 =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83x=CF=88)" =E2=89=A1 "=
=E2=88=83x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)" transformation:
>> =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(=E2=88=83z(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 kanla(z,x=
))
>>
>> =3D {ro da ro de su'o di zo'u ganai da de viska gi di da kanla} (prenex
>> normal form)
>>
>
> I appreciate your formation. One point to confirm is about your first
> formation using {roldza} and {suzdza}. That is one of a reasonable
> interpretation of a bridi nested in {poi}-clause, and I agree to that
> interpretation. Is that a common interpretation among lojban speakers? In
> fact, la xorxes seems to be against it, and the prenex in {poi}-clause
> cannot be put out according to his interpretation, and his interpretation
> is also consistent.
>

Why do I seem to be against it? I agree with Ilmen's expansions, and notice
that he does have a prenex in a poi clause in one of the steps.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 7:04 PM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni.kantu@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">Le dima=
nche 26 juillet 2015 21:34:54 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div>On 26/07/2015 15:29, guskant wrote:=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote>=
</span></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">=
<div>Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:</div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
        <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
          ro da poi ke&#39;a su&#39;o de viska cu se kanla su&#39;o di<br>
          =3D ro da poi su&#39;o de zo&#39;u ke&#39;a de viska ku&#39;o su&=
#39;o di zo&#39;u di da
          kanla<br>
          =3D ro da zo&#39;u ganai su&#39;o de zo&#39;u da de viska gi su&#=
39;o di zo&#39;u di
          da kanla<br>
          =3D roldza fa loka ko&#39;a ce&#39;ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko&#39=
;a ce&#39;u
          viska gi suzdza fa loka ce&#39;u ko&#39;a kanla<br>
          =3D roldza fa loka ko&#39;a ce&#39;ai zilvlina fa lodu&#39;u jitf=
a fa lodu&#39;u
          suzdza fa loka ko&#39;a ce&#39;u viska kei kei kei fe lodu&#39;u =
suzdza fa
          loka ce&#39;u ko&#39;a kanla<br>
          <br></div></blockquote>
      <div>It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a
        prenex normal form?</div></blockquote>
    {ro da zo&#39;u ganai su&#39;o de zo&#39;u da de viska gi su&#39;o di z=
o&#39;u di da
    kanla}<br>
    =3D =E2=88=80x((=E2=88=83y(viska(x,y))) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z,x=
)))<br>
    <br>
    # Application of the &quot;(=E2=88=83x=CF=95) =E2=86=92 =CF=88&quot; =
=E2=89=A1 &quot;=E2=88=80x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)&quot; transformation:<b=
r>
    =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83z(kanla(z=
,x)))<br>
    <br>
    # Application of the &quot;=CF=95 =E2=86=92 (=E2=88=83x=CF=88)&quot; =
=E2=89=A1 &quot;=E2=88=83x(=CF=95 =E2=86=92 =CF=88)&quot; transformation:<b=
r>
    =E2=89=A1 =E2=88=80x=E2=88=80y(=E2=88=83z(viska(x,y) =E2=86=92 kanla(z,=
x))<br>
    <br>
    =3D {ro da ro de su&#39;o di zo&#39;u ganai da de viska gi di da kanla}
    (prenex normal form)</div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I app=
reciate your formation. One point to confirm is about your first formation =
using {roldza} and {suzdza}. That is one of a reasonable interpretation of =
a bridi nested in {poi}-clause, and I agree to that interpretation. Is that=
 a common interpretation among lojban speakers? In fact, la xorxes seems to=
 be against it, and the prenex in {poi}-clause cannot be put out according =
to his interpretation, and his interpretation is also consistent.</div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div><div>Why do I seem to be against it? I agree w=
ith Ilmen&#39;s expansions, and notice that he does have a prenex in a poi =
clause in one of the steps.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorx=
es</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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