Received: from mail-io0-f190.google.com ([209.85.223.190]:34267) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZKPe1-0004mc-1Q for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 04:35:43 -0700 Received: by ioej123 with SMTP id j123sf3528643ioe.1 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 04:35:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=pHFkSvNw41geBSw3z0O744o8mEE4ebPF/qTR+zh71T0=; b=jDebvtYkSE0iFXjPbrZZewzrjSrSMQOB/SkNmwaRRneV3j5MfVJBCEBTVE8SeR4TUb 0xQkpxJ5C+hxuVamZ0ZaRWxRbfP6Al7kiSz9sOd/RDAuHFLQQj4gpaqR9ybx3v5D9eha 0WIBxh0ODAhiqmqIe2vNgDff/aqk/BPYMiPBsP1Oo9Ctj43ARt9m/j3PXnmiyPF56P/B JlmhOLQjA6iAzuRoXmo7k6cs4Q284EB3HKoncbfYpl7z9HsH5D8peS9X5dph4YSruhGG vAX687O0Migob6gvVsWzWVyD14b8XfvlM8MEHwjHsrhbEr6odGXcTshQ+sNwD+5Jk83L lLzA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=pHFkSvNw41geBSw3z0O744o8mEE4ebPF/qTR+zh71T0=; b=tFTwRt1/dVN8Wvpz7Te1hSoI8ylMAvlR+szs/73VJREAKlY+Jr3ztXTpi9RTpuV70b LzL69HweMeR9/wagurZS0la3MECgMARxOxh4gduaS8IhNXpyZUt6U5jaZTmj6ToBqnaU y4HwPge84G8NV0hrDkghb67gnp2xi8z8OfFpYoVdMEezVHOO3NPkma7XH50uSb9fekmx yheMyZ/14WMBtHxhmarh4K5ByckIVGCWdm+Nhgj5trAobZBmC1FdOimzVzquWQp2J+a7 YOJPftZJWLteOERMkuxlEaz9muDyr2q460KRzEqNJKZSABvlWQa495Qc0HUVrcGN13M1 8kCg== X-Received: by 10.50.85.40 with SMTP id e8mr31898igz.1.1438169727121; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 04:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.8.9 with SMTP id n9ls162167iga.28.gmail; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.142.99 with SMTP id rv3mr143728igb.3.1438169726709; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 04:35:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Spheniscine (la zipcpi)" To: lojban Message-Id: <1ec1b9e9-3f83-4599-a127-f978cbd844c4@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Sensations / qualia (colors etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_755_1115253878.1438169725274" X-Original-Sender: spheniscine@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_755_1115253878.1438169725274 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_756_602449481.1438169725275" ------=_Part_756_602449481.1438169725275 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 One question that comes up time and again is how to separate "red", the color, from an object that's red, {lo xunre}. E.g. "I like (the color) red". "Red is a beautiful color". {si'o} is often suggested (mi nelci lo si'o xunre / lo si'o xunre cu melbi), but may not be a sufficient solution. Compare with "I see the color red". This is not necessarily dependent on there actually being anything red; I might be hallucinating, or have synaesthesia. Selpahi has suggested making new brivla altogether for the colors, but I believe that they need to be regularized from {xunre} etc. Just making zi'evla for the colors ({xu'unre} etc.) is, I believe, an unsustainable solution; what of combinatory color words, or {skasmi} or {skarxetmele}? Additionally, it isn't just colors that have this issue. How about "I feel dryness"? This is similarly independent of there actualy being anything that's {lo sudga}. I propose that what is actually needed is a new type of object. I have defined it as {ganseti} on JVS: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ganseti x1 is the sensation/qualia (abstract) associated with objects with property x2 (ka), via sense x3 (ka) lo ganseti be lo ka (ce'u ) xunre = "the color red", lo ganseti be lo ka (ce'u ) sudga = "the sensation/feeling of dryness". x3 is the involved sense, e.g. lo ka viska for sight; this can often be left unspecified. Proposed NU: ga'ei , with rafsi -gel- . See ganse , li'i . Thoughts? Questions? Alternatives? Additional thought: If {lo ganseti} / {lo ga'ei broda} is a new type of object, where does it go? nelci2 is flexible enough to accept both concrete and abstract objects of all kinds, but is a ga'ei-type suitable for ganse2 or viska2? If it isn't, we'd need new brivla for those. Perhaps a new gismu, {gelse} "x1 (entity) feels sensation x2 (ga'ei) via sense x3 (ka)". With rafsi -ge'e-, so that lujvo can then be built e.g. {visyge'e} = {x1 gelse x2 lo ka viska} -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_756_602449481.1438169725275 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One question that comes up time and again is how to separa= te "red", the color, from an object that's red, {lo xunre}. E= .g. "I like (the color) red". "Red is a beautiful color"= ;.

{si'o} is often suggested (mi nelci lo si'o x= unre / lo si'o xunre cu melbi), but may not be a sufficient solution. C= ompare with "I see the color red". This is not necessarily depend= ent on there actually being anything red; I might be hallucinating, or have= synaesthesia.

Selpahi has suggested making new br= ivla altogether for the colors, but I believe that they need to be regulari= zed from {xunre} etc. Just making zi'evla for the colors ({xu'unre}= etc.) is, I believe, an unsustainable solution; what of combinatory color = words, or {skasmi} or {skarxetmele}?

Additionally,= it isn't just colors that have this issue. How about "I feel dryn= ess"? This is similarly independent of there actualy being anything th= at's {lo sudga}.

I propose that what is actual= ly needed is a new type of object. I have defined it as {ganseti} on JVS:= =C2=A0http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ganseti

= x1=C2=A0is the sensation/qualia (abstract) associated with objects with prop= erty x2=C2=A0(ka), via sense x3=C2=A0(ka)

<= /div>
l= o=C2=A0ganseti=C2=A0be=C2=A0lo=C2=A0ka=C2=A0(ce'u)=C2=A0xunre=C2=A0=3D "the color red",=C2=A0lo=C2=A0ga= nseti=C2=A0be=C2=A0lo=C2=A0ka=C2=A0(ce'u)=C2=A0sudga=C2=A0=3D "the sensation/feeling of dryness". x3=C2=A0is the = involved sense, e.g.=C2=A0lo=C2=A0ka=C2=A0viska=C2=A0for sight; = this can often be left unspecified. Proposed NU:=C2=A0ga'= ;ei, with rafsi -gel- . See=C2=A0ganse,=C2=A0li'i.

Thoughts? Questions? Alternativ= es?

Additional thought: If {lo ganseti} / {lo ga&#= 39;ei broda} is a new type of object, where does it go? nelci2 is flexible = enough to accept both concrete and abstract objects of all kinds, but is a = ga'ei-type suitable for ganse2 or viska2? If it isn't, we'd nee= d new brivla for those. Perhaps a new gismu, {gelse} "x1 (entity) feel= s sensation x2 (ga'ei) via sense x3 (ka)". With rafsi -ge'e-, = so that lujvo can then be built e.g. {visyge'e} =3D {x1 gelse x2 lo ka = viska}

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Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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