Received: from mail-wi0-f186.google.com ([209.85.212.186]:34221) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZKZW8-000302-IB for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:08:11 -0700 Received: by wicmv11 with SMTP id mv11sf7586944wic.1 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=Q0XbkuoIlXqWYogEvmNQeP2Gt9K4y/s9wvULKobS/RU=; b=J+q/zrEPWdKQ8nhdsOaUH0X+FwFVfNQr8mfK05iWJSsLRbBSkb1mIqWB2UyEOS4kRY lil/tQJFWdzs3+qQlGGcjH7zmKN+g4nnozJyIVbA37wwblcPUreHjuupPMM72DLLtzMo +j8MgtA9Mok6YL9+pgIaijPgJfD4BXa8sVRzz849GueinYopO36FI6jEWrIB4A+HH6nK rjLuIX0oZZVZuSbzV5qOdensikOtBSFC0u2aD6iFWJGFPbeNkK2H9VppDo3D/hLJsH5I D2+w9cdDShz03Lu9AwDsHYhwBCoTF6zSMQPGw+2KInfZvDdAHGYpbisyE2pNGONs1TKm lBmQ== X-Received: by 10.180.149.174 with SMTP id ub14mr74993wib.2.1438207678050; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.103.41 with SMTP id ft9ls1215626wib.33.canary; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.83.33 with SMTP id n1mr1787015wiy.4.1438207676442; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bk2si733389wib.1.2015.07.29.15.07.56 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c; Received: by mail-wi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id ud3so44297969wib.0 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.98.134 with SMTP id ei6mr9506765wib.49.1438207676344; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.80.87 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1ec1b9e9-3f83-4599-a127-f978cbd844c4@googlegroups.com> References: <1ec1b9e9-3f83-4599-a127-f978cbd844c4@googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:07:56 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Sensations / qualia (colors etc.) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442829aa96dc1051c0ad165 X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d0442829aa96dc1051c0ad165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Spheniscine (la zipcpi) < spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote: > One question that comes up time and again is how to separate "red", the > color, from an object that's red, {lo xunre}. E.g. "I like (the color) > red". "Red is a beautiful color". > Is that very different from "I like elephants", "elephants are beautiful animals"? {si'o} is often suggested (mi nelci lo si'o xunre / lo si'o xunre cu > melbi), but may not be a sufficient solution. Compare with "I see the color > red". This is not necessarily dependent on there actually being anything > red; I might be hallucinating, or have synaesthesia. > Is that very different from "I see elephants" when there are no elephants around? Selpahi has suggested making new brivla altogether for the colors, but I > believe that they need to be regularized from {xunre} etc. Just making > zi'evla for the colors ({xu'unre} etc.) is, I believe, an unsustainable > solution; what of combinatory color words, or {skasmi} or {skarxetmele}? > > Additionally, it isn't just colors that have this issue. How about "I feel > dryness"? This is similarly independent of there actualy being anything > that's {lo sudga}. > > I propose that what is actually needed is a new type of object. I have > defined it as {ganseti} on JVS: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ganseti > So "I like elephants" becomes "mi nelci lo ganseti be lo ka xanto"? > x1 is the sensation/qualia (abstract) associated with objects with > property x2 (ka), via sense x3 (ka) > > > lo ganseti > be > lo > ka > (ce'u > ) xunre > = "the color > red", lo ganseti > be > lo > ka > (ce'u > ) sudga > = "the > sensation/feeling of dryness". x3 is the involved sense, e.g. lo > ka > viska > for sight; this > can often be left unspecified. Proposed NU: ga'ei > , with rafsi > -gel- . See ganse > , li'i > . > > > Thoughts? Questions? Alternatives? > I don't see a problem with a word for "qualia", but I don't expect people to start saying "I like the qualia of being red" or "I like the qualia of being an elephant" instead of "I like red" or "I like elephants" though. It seems more natural that "lo xanto", "lo xunre" can be elephants (in general) and red as well as particular elephants or particular red objects. I'd rather these ontological distinctions be handled with brivla, not grammaticized with cmavo. Additional thought: If {lo ganseti} / {lo ga'ei broda} is a new type of > object, where does it go? nelci2 is flexible enough to accept both concrete > and abstract objects of all kinds, but is a ga'ei-type suitable for ganse2 > or viska2? If it isn't, we'd need new brivla for those. Perhaps a new > gismu, {gelse} "x1 (entity) feels sensation x2 (ga'ei) via sense x3 (ka)". > With rafsi -ge'e-, so that lujvo can then be built e.g. {visyge'e} = {x1 > gelse x2 lo ka viska} > A brivla like that could be useful, whether it be gismu or something else. But I'm skeptical of argument places for ungrounded properties. What if you want to say "I saw elephants. They were pink with purple spots." Is there a way to refer back to the elephants in a second sentence? mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d0442829aa96dc1051c0ad165 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Spheniscine (la zipcpi) = <spheniscine@= gmail.com> wrote:
One question that comes up time and again is how to separate "= ;red", the color, from an object that's red, {lo xunre}. E.g. &quo= t;I like (the color) red". "Red is a beautiful color".
=

Is that very different from "I like e= lephants", "elephants are beautiful animals"? =C2=A0

{si'o= } is often suggested (mi nelci lo si'o xunre / lo si'o xunre cu mel= bi), but may not be a sufficient solution. Compare with "I see the col= or red". This is not necessarily dependent on there actually being any= thing red; I might be hallucinating, or have synaesthesia.

Is that very different from "I see elephan= ts" when there are no elephants around?=C2=A0

Selpahi has suggested maki= ng new brivla altogether for the colors, but I believe that they need to be= regularized from {xunre} etc. Just making zi'evla for the colors ({xu&= #39;unre} etc.) is, I believe, an unsustainable solution; what of combinato= ry color words, or {skasmi} or {skarxetmele}?=C2=A0

Additi= onally, it isn't just colors that have this issue. How about "I fe= el dryness"? This is similarly independent of there actualy being anyt= hing that's {lo sudga}.

I propose that what is= actually needed is a new type of object. I have defined it as {ganseti} on= JVS:=C2=A0http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ganseti

So "I like elephants" becomes "mi nelci= lo ganseti be lo ka xanto"?

=C2=A0
x1=C2=A0is the sensation/qualia (abstract= ) associated with objects with property x2=C2=A0(ka), via sense x3=C2=A0(ka)

lo=C2= =A0g= anseti=C2=A0be=C2=A0= lo=C2=A0ka= = =C2=A0(ce'u)=C2=A0xunre=C2=A0=3D "the color red",=C2=A0lo=C2=A0ganseti=C2=A0be=C2=A0lo=C2=A0ka=C2=A0(ce'u)=C2=A0= sudg= a= =C2=A0=3D "the sensation/feeling of dryness". x3=C2=A0is the involved sense, e.= g.=C2=A0l= o= =C2=A0ka<= /a>= =C2=A0= viska=C2=A0for sight; this can often be left unspecified. Proposed NU:=C2=A0= ga'ei, with rafsi -gel- . See=C2=A0ganse,=C2=A0li'i.

Thoughts? Questions? Alternatives?

I don't see a problem with a word for "= qualia", but I don't expect people to start saying "I like th= e qualia of being red" or "I like the qualia of being an elephant= " instead of "I like red" or "I like elephants" th= ough. It seems more natural that "lo xanto", "lo xunre"= can be elephants (in general) and red as well as particular elephants or p= articular red objects. I'd rather these ontological distinctions be han= dled with brivla, not grammaticized with cmavo.

Additional thought: If {lo ga= nseti} / {lo ga'ei broda} is a new type of object, where does it go? ne= lci2 is flexible enough to accept both concrete and abstract objects of all= kinds, but is a ga'ei-type suitable for ganse2 or viska2? If it isn= 9;t, we'd need new brivla for those. Perhaps a new gismu, {gelse} "= ;x1 (entity) feels sensation x2 (ga'ei) via sense x3 (ka)". With r= afsi -ge'e-, so that lujvo can then be built e.g. {visyge'e} =3D {x= 1 gelse x2 lo ka viska}

A brivl= a like that could be useful, whether it be gismu or something else. But I&#= 39;m skeptical of argument places for ungrounded properties. What if you wa= nt to say "I saw elephants. They were pink with purple spots." Is= there a way to refer back to the elephants in a second sentence?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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